No Insult But Its Hypocracy

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jasonxx

No Insult But Its Hypocracy

Post by jasonxx »

This Post wont do me any favours but here goes. I think a little Pot calling kettle is kinda Evident.

I go with the outpour of Condemnation of Porthonians for 300. The gratuatous Violence. The Anti This anti That. On and on... All this from people who read book after book and debate and discuss a topic of Alexander. Who was primarily an expert and exactor of death Massacre and everything else that goes with a warring Conqueror.

Alexander was pre.eminent in the art of whole sale slaughter and distruction. I would be anti Alexander because of that as basically he was a product of what is war Glory and Conquest.

I am pretty sure the Macedonians didnt tickle or humainly Slaughter the Persians or others they put to the Sword. Its fair to say extreme butchery was the norm of the day. Not one neat little stab or cut and you were dead. Its fare to say a human can take a hell of a lot of hacking before you actually die. Unless off course yopu were stabbed through the head or decapitated.

Some argue 300 is too graphic. well if ancient warfare aint graphic see the trees for the woods. I do think to dismiss 300 and still talk and follow Alexander is very hypocritical.

Apart from the fantasy of Monsters etc. I recall one reviewr saying a movie that was actually a war film not one with a silly undertone. to dismiss 300 totally to me is living in denial.

If anyone actually believes war is anything more than Lying Politicians kings rulers etc leading and sometime forcing people to butcher each other on a pretence of some silly lies.

kenny
jasonxx

Post by jasonxx »

Im not gonna put down Alexanders achievements. But I will pick up the subject of conning and lies. Alexander basically conned all and everyone on his own personal road to Glory fication.

Democracy. Freeing Greec Cities along the Coast of Asia Minor. Grrek Expedition of Vengeance. All carrots held up by a very astute con man who had Propoganda to a fine art. A charisma that carried it also.

Alexander wars and conquests were a concept based on lies. To Cloak his personal Ambition for eternal Glory. Say what we will he was definately a con Artiste.

Leonidas was as true. He really thought he was fighting for his country and a cause.
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amyntoros
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Post by amyntoros »

jasonxx wrote:Some argue 300 is too graphic. well if ancient warfare aint graphic see the trees for the woods. I do think to dismiss 300 and still talk and follow Alexander is very hypocritical.
:?: I don't recall anyone on this forum giving the scenes of graphic violence as their reason for not liking 300. And also, you might recall that most members here would have liked to see more battle scenes in Stone's Alexander movie.

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beausefaless
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Freedom of thought

Post by beausefaless »

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Last edited by beausefaless on Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
jasonxx

Post by jasonxx »

Andrew

Im not comparing Leonidas with Alexnder at all. What i do compare is the brutality of war. Its said the movie to gratuatous etc. The Comparison with 300 and Alexander is basically warfare of that period was in essence the same. As buch butchery as can be ammased as to secure victory.

Infact one could go further with Philips and Alexanders Brutality. Its fare to say Thermopalae was a defensive action based on butchery but as a whole Spartan. Thebans and athens way of war was to geta result and call it a day.

Philip and Alexander were in the game of seek chase and anhialate. I wouldnt CompareLeonidas to Alexander in any way shape or form so I dont deserve rejection and for you to say so is basically stupid.

One thing can be said is Butlers Leonidas would inspire troops more than farrels Alexander
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Phoebus
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Re: Freedom of thought

Post by Phoebus »

beausefaless wrote:But: I expected to see the big brawl and argument between the Spartans and the Athenian Senate and the fight that broke out between the Athenian guards and the Spartans but the Athenians were smart to agree to let the 300 hold off Xerxes as long as possible.
No offense intended but... huh?
Of course the ending of the movie was totally absurd; in all reality, Leonidas was killed at the beginning of the battle and his men had hidden his body, it wasn't just the big Kahuna gone down at the end it was about everyone that went at once.
Actually, I'm not sure that this is such a big deal. Leonidas died in the last day of fighting, right before the final stand. His remaining men fought for his corpse and carried it off to the hillock where they all died from a distance.

In that sense, Miller & Co. are only guilty of dramatic license. They essentially gave Leonidas an extra 5-10 minutes of life and a shot at Xerxes.
The Spartan 300 were some of the better fighting soldiers this world has ever seen and they were not taken out one by one as the movie showed.
Come again? Herodotus describes that the Lacedaemonians--like the other Hellenes--were involved in fighting for a total of three days. In Book VII, Paragraph 211, he makes it clear that they fell a few at a time--battle by battle. Similarly, the movie--though it focuses on 1-2 dramatic deaths in particular--depicts the Similars dying a few here, a few there.

Beyond that, while Salamis was a great victory, that's hardly the end of the story. Mardonius and the remainder of the field army had to be defeate at Plataea.
The Spartans were worth 20 to one and if it was an even fight the brutality of the Spartan side would have been fast and furious and the battle would not have lasted no longer than 20 minutes.
There's nothing that Herodotus gives us that indicates that this was the case. In fact, the descriptions offer the opposite. On the first day alone, Herodotus mentions that the Medes, Kissians, and finally the Immortals engaged the Hellenes. Assuming a full Baivabaram for each of those three factions, roughly 30,000 soldiers had to be marshalled, marched out, and put to fight in a narrow area. Each day's worth of fighting would have thus lasted hours.
The Spartans created mountains of Persian dead bodies it became impossible for the Persians to kill the 300 since they use the bodies for cover finally the Persians got smart and decided to kill the surviving 300 with arrows and with Leonidas portrayed as the last man standing, I believe that was a crock to stool!
I'm really not sure if you're trying to say that's how it happened in real life or if you're criticizing the movie here. Apologies!
Leonidas was a dumb idiot!
Why? Nothing Leonidas did indicates he was in any way inferior to his contemporaries. The extant evidence shows that he was at least aware of the political realities of the situation (hence his reques for Theban hoplites), that he was savvy regarding the topography of the battlefield (he posted rear guards and scouts; he enabled about70-80% of his force to escape when the battle was no longer winnable), and that he was both brave and skilled as a commander (as indicated by the conduct of his men for the three days of fighting).
If you are trying to compare him in any way to Alexander you should be demoted to a foot soldier (Pezhetairos)! In war there are no rules and to kill or be killed is law. Any soldier who gives up without a fight should be shot.
Why, did Leonidas?
Alexander's men benefited beyond their wildest dreams and in ancient times winners in war was the ultimate glory.
A generalization, and not a very appropriate one given the conduct of soldiers since time immemorial.
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Paralus
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Post by Paralus »

All of the preceding post and a couple more.

The Athenian “senate”? Are we speaking of the assembly?

The Lacedaemonian homoioi were indeed “taken out” in dribs and drabs as were the other Greeks. To suggest they did not die piecemeal in the three day battle is slightly absurd.

Although the movie is little interested in showing it, Diodorus records for us the composition of the Greek holding force (11.4.1-7). Leonidas leads 1,000 “Lacedaemonians, including 300 homoioi”. The rest will have likely been perioikoi. Left unmentioned, as they do not rate, are the Spartan serfs, the helots.

This contingent was ordered to the pass with 3,000 “other Greeks”. When they got there they were joined by “1,000 Lokrians, the same number of Malians and not much short of 1,000 Phokians, together with up to 400 Thebans of the ‘opposition’ (for the inhabitants of Thebes were split into opposing parties regarding their alliance with Persia).”

Awful difficult to distinguish that from the film though.

Also difficult to distinguish are the Thespians who – along with the homoioi, the helots and the Thebans, died on the last day. At least the Greek government put up a monument to the Thespians during the nineties.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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