Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

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agesilaos
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Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by agesilaos »

Some time ago , I raised the question of AlexanderGÇÖs putative brother, Karanos, in the course of which discussion Susan, I think questioned whether Arrhidaeus was older than alexander as is usually assumed and as I was saying; now I have sorted out my reasons.The usual reason would be that Philinna, ArrhidaeusGÇÖ mother was married to Philip before Olympias and this picture of serial rather than parallel sexual activity was what everyone was against, so I wonGÇÖt adduce that.However, I would suggest that the name Arrhidaeus gives the game away. Philip did not name his children by opening a Boots book of baby names-Macedonian edition their names commemorate his victories (Thessalonike, Europe) or honour the alliance they form part of (Alexander and probably Kyanne).As usual though nothing is straight forward and I have two stemma for Philip. According to Hammond, GÇÿThe Macedonian StateGÇÖ Arrhidaeus was PhilipGÇÖs grandfather which is great because it was standard practice for the eldest son to be named for the grandfather eg Lysimachos begat Agathokles whose son was Lysimachos the Diadoch whose eldest son was Agathokles again. This rule was not always followed but it was very common. In this case of course it is the great-grandfather but another Amyntas may not have seemed politic and he already had a son-in-law of that name the King he had replaced.Fortunately Elllis GÇÿPhilip II and Macedonian ImperialismGÇÖ has the grandfather as ? and the first Arrhidaeus as a great-uncle . The only other plausible candidate is PhilipGÇÖs step-brother who may have had a claim to be considered as a candidate for King which he presumably waived or he may have helped stifle his elder brother ArchelausGÇÖ claim or indeed his life, as he appears to have deceased about this time..359-8 is the only time when when Philip would feel the need to show any appreciation as later he was well enough established to be an ingrate. By 348 Arrhidaeus was out of favour and skulking in Olynthos. Naturally much of this is speculation as our sources are lamentable for this period but I cannot see any other reason for Philip to call his son Arrhidaeus.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Kate

Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by Kate »

Hi,The exact date of Philinna's marriage to Philip is unknown and therefore it is difficult to try and plot the date of Arrhidaeus's birth. Since his marriage to the daughter of Pixodaurus was supposed to be in spring 336, Philip and Philinna presumably got married soon after Philip became king, maybe in 358 or 357? This could mean that Alexander and Arrhidaeus were born around the same time. My personal feeling is that Alexander may have been the elder, but that is based on a gut reaction to the way Philip seemed so pleased by his birth, the way a father might be about the birth of his first son. But, of course, we don't have the evidence to show how he felt or celebrated the birth of Arrhidaeus so I suppose who was the elder is one of those questions which will never have a definite answer.Cheers,Kate
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by susan »

Hi KarlJust to add some more complexities - have you considered that both Alexander and Arrhidaeus may not be the first sons of those names born to Philip? I am going partly by my own family history, traced back in England to 1425. The pattern of inheritance of family names was very marked; in one case a man named Isaac had at least six sons named Isaac; as each one died in childhood the next along was christened Isaac to keep the name going. Also my great-great-grandfather, James, called all of his sons James ( with a different second name) and his daughter Jemima - to keep the name going.This is not pure speculation - the Syrian version of the Alexander Romance says that Philip named his son Alexander after a son by another wife that had died. While the Alexander Romance is usually written off as a source, there are clearly parts that are correct, and it's possible that this may be one of them. I'm not saying that this definitely is the case, just that there are a lot of possibilities.Susan
Tre

Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by Tre »

I think it far more likely by this time potential heirs were named after previous Kings. Note that Arrhidaeus was not allowed to keep his single name -but Philip was attached to it. That he was named Arrhideaus suggests yes he was an Argead, but quite possibly not a heir to the kingship. In fact like the women, his name may have been changed later when it was determined there was something wrong with him. Alexander should have been named Amyntas in honor of Philip's father, but since his older brother Perdiccas had secured the name already for his son (and apparently we have no male heirs from the older brother Alexander)that was out. Indeed Philip owed Perdikkas for getting him out of Thebes. And in fact, it would have been a threatening move to hve given two living Argead heirs the same name - it suggests only one to be left. However, by naming his son Alexander he tipped his hat three times - to the most famous Argead King, to Olympias' brother and to his older brother. Alexander's son naturally was named after his father because he was deceased and to define his bloodline.That's my two cents...Regards,Tre
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by susan »

Of course one of the major problems is the limited range of names they used. At the back of Heckel is a list of 152 individuals that he refers to, that are also referred to by Berve. Of these 152:6 are called Amyntas
5 are called Balacros
9 are called Philippos
6 are called Philotas
6 are called PtolemaiosThe glossary at the back of Curtius shows
4 Alexander ( apart from ATG)
8 Amyntas
6 Philip
3 Ptolemaios
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by marcus »

Susan,You clearly have too much time on your hands.:-)Marcus
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agesilaos
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by agesilaos »

The point about the paucity of Macedonian names is true but irrelevant in that no matter how restricted the choice the naming of his children was still down to Philip's choice.Tre's suggestion that heirs were named after former kings is interesting but not susceptible to proof; earlier in the century Ptolemy Aloros felt no need for a regnal name. Philip-Arrhidaeus is a special case his mental deficiency led to his advisors reinstituting Philip II's coinages and clearly had to stress the father as the son was not a dream candidate. And the problem would be whom was Arrhidaeus named for?
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Tre

Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by Tre »

Ptolemy was Regent for the younger Perdikkas - we're not actually sure if he ever was King.
Tre

Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by Tre »

I should also mention Cassander follows the Argead habit of naming after former kings himself when it came to his sons - Philip, Antipater and Alexander.
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by agesilaos »

I don't think there was a King Antipater, and this was his eldest son I think, this is the usual family name passing on unless he was taking the sting out of his break with his father. Also I think for a Macedonian King to not use the names Philip and Alexander would be strange considering their towering prescence in the previous fifty years.I agree Ptolemy's status is obscure but there are also Aeropos and Orestes and Pausanias; but I concede that these periods of instability make hard cases and hard cases make bad law.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Tre

Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by Tre »

Of course Cassander had to consider Antipater King -he had to justify the male line.Now the real question is, what of a son called Perdikkas? It would seem likely that Philip would have honored this brother above all, so indeed, was this Arrhidaeus' first name, he being the elder? If there was a son of Eurydike, this was not the name he attempted to use and he would have no doubt not placed the name twice that being bad luck.Endless speculation :-)
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by susan »

Here's another ideaPerdikkas is an Illyrian name, I think it has connections with 'horses'. Philip's mother was part Illyrian, so her son was named Perdikkas with a reference to her Illyrian background. Philip's known sons were not by Illyrian wives, so he didn't use the name Perdikkas.
The later Perdikkas, Alexander's general, came from Orestis on the borders of Illyria. In any case Philip probably had several sons, it seems unlikely that the three we know of are all of them, so one could have been named Perdikkas anyway.Susan
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

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However Perdikkas was a Macedonian royal name,the Temenid line being founded by Perdikkas I.The issue of Philip's fecundity is notorious, with only Justin supporting the idea of more children than we know about. That and the probability, I lean towards the idea of there being a battery of illegitimate offspring who could be ignored by our sources; indeed, it was said that Arrhidaeus was one such and his mother Philinna no more than a dancing girl!
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Re: Arrhidaeus older than Alexander?

Post by susan »

I think Arrhidaeos must have been legitimate but incapable, because he was kept alive but under Alexander's supervision. He was legitimate enough, after Alexander's death, to equal in rank a legitimate half-Sogdian; if illegitimacy was no barrier to inheritance then the army could have considered Heracles, Barsine's son. I think he was no real threat to Alexander because he was incapable.I don't think Philinna was a dancing girl either, this sounds like a slander from the Wars of the successors; the old guard Macedonians would never have stood for a king that was both of lowly birth and mentally incapable, it would have made them look ridiculous. The Greeks misunderstood the Macedonian habit of royal polygamy - if there was a legitimate wife then they would regard the others as mistresses.
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Post by smittysmitty »

The question has often been raised as to who was the elder, Arrhidaeus or Alexander.

Whilst there are no certain answers, I was pleasantly suprised to find a reference to this matter whilst reading the chronicles of Bishop John of Nikiu. I'm sure that for many Pothos contributers this is not a new bit of information, but it is for me.
[LIX.9] And when Alexander was dying he divided his kingdomamong his four companions who had helped him in his campigns. [10] And Philip, his elder brother, took Macedonia and reigned over it and all Europe. Further more he made Ptolemy, surnamed Lagus, king of Egypt.
The veracity of this comment is obviously subject to the usual considerations of source origination (which is unknown), temporal proximity as well as contextual fit.

John was an Egyptian Coptic Bishop who was appointed administrator of the monastries of Upper Egypt in 696 CE. Numerous works no longer extant on Alexander would have been available to him, particularly those of the Alexandrian school, and may indeed reflect an accurate representation of the differences in ages between the two Argaead brothers. Or it may simply represent a belief common in the seventh century CE.

Unfortunately, John's works survives only in an Ethiopian translation made in 1602 which itself was translated from an Arabic version of the original which was written predominantly in Greek and perhaps Egyptian. We cannot be certain of ommissions, misrepresentations etc. that took fold over the centuries. The comment may in fact be an early seventeenth century inclusion.

So I guess it amounts to this. Sometime between the seventh to seventeenth century CE., someone believed Arrhidaeus was the elder of the two. Why? Based on the literary sources available to us today, I don't think there is anything that would substantiate such a belief. Had John, or those who translated his works gone on gut feeling ? I'm inclined to believe that it was not but that in itself is a gut feeling. I'm sure if I tried to rationalise it a bit more, I could come up with a more convincing answer.

Whatever the case may be, I can't recall any other source that specifically claims Arrhidaeus was the elder of the two. Has anyone else come across any information that may reflect the ages of the two?


Cheers
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