Are the Macedonians, Greek?

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lazar

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by lazar »

This is the inscription on the statue of the THE ATHENIAN SNOB as you call it."If thy strength had only been equal to thy purposes, Demosthenes, never would the GREEKS have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares" Why would they mention GREEKS ruled by MACEDONIAN if Macedonians were Greeks????????The statue along with the inscription was erected in Athens 42 years after Demosthenes death to honor HIS PATRIOTISM TOWARDS GREECE!!!
DimitriosPoliorketes

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

GREEN ALEXANDER OF MACEDON pg 17 (again Homer provides a close paralell ,in the example of of Achilles and the Myrmidos)At least as early as the 5th century BC Argeads were claiming traditional suzerainty over Upper Macedonia on quesi Hommeric linesthe overloardship resembl;ed AGAMEMNON over his fellow kings The argeads themselves headed pedigree with HERACLES stlye ZEUS born like any MYCENEAN DYNASTY Macedonias OUTDATED institutions were despised by the REST of GREECEhere so often in MACEDONIA MYCENEAN parrelels apply like SPARTA it it preseved instutions such as Kingship and baronial feudalismThe men of lower MACEDONIA worshiped GREEK GODS and the ROYAL FAMILY claimed decent from HERACLESLYNCESTIS was ruled by decendents of the BACCHIAD DYNASTY who moved on to MACEDONIA following there explusion from CORINTH in in 657 BC Obvious that Green is implying that the MACEDONIANS
where a primitive GREEK people living in the Homeric ageBORZA who contradicts himself
From the Book Makedonika
pp 149-58 Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander's Court
by Eugene Borza
First , the matter of the Hellenic origins of the Macedonians:Nicholas Hammond's GENERAL CONCLUSION that the ORIGIN of the MACEDONIANS lies in the pool of PROTO HELLENIC speakers who migrated out of the PINDUS mountains during the Iron Age is ACCEPTABLE. If the MACEDONIANS were PROTO HELLENIC via origin ( meaning Greeks of the Homeric age)and then according to BORZA they became Hellenized then its obvious that BORZA 's viewpoint contradicts itself. EX The GOTHS were PROTO GERMAN in origin then later on became GERMANIZED.
stavros

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by stavros »

and you think this inscription makes them non-greek. athenians, macedonians, spartans, etc.. all at war with each other during the ancient days (unfortunately) to control of what was Ellas. you should know this by now? hence why this inscription you mention created some fear in athens at the time of a greater power rising in Ellas.
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Sorry to intervene,
I've tried previously to avoid these discussions, but I guess there comes a point where one has to speak up in defence of alternative belief.Dimitrios, and alike, I gather you are familiar with some/all of the literature of old, and also perhaps aquainted with some/all moderns points of view;what I find remarkable is this constant quoting of sources in order to qualify the hellenic nature of the Makedones., rarely if at all do you quote the many references that suggest the alternative to be the case. Perhaps you should set aside a time frame of a month or two, re read the sources with the thought that the Makedones were not hellenes, and see what you come up with.I have found it to be an interesting exercise, and admit, these days I doubt the Makedones were hellenes at all! ( I guess that's not going to make much difference to other members of the forum).The Makedones where exactly that, Makedones!I'm having second thoughts as to wheteher to post or not now, lol!Bah! on with the show, I've said my peace.cheers!
DimtriosPoliorketes

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by DimtriosPoliorketes »

gather you are familiar with some/all of the literature of old, and also perhaps aquainted with some/all moderns points of view; Now Smitty tell me what sources of old are you referring to.Herodotus,Hesoid ,Arrian ect ? Are you referring to the German historians of old? Belloch ect Otto Hoffman?. And what modern authors and points of view the ,Hammond,Robin Lane Fox ect ?or the Revisionist school began by Badian and his desiples such as Borza?Please enlighten me as to which sources.I will be more then happy to address them with you. Now lets see what in your mind qualifies a group as Hellenes ?Is it common language,common religion,common beleifs as to origins?common political structure.A composite of many factors?What are those factors be specific?Please list your sources.Have you been to Pella ? Vergina?The Archeological meuseum in Thessaloniki? Tell me why you think Hammond's perspective or Wilken's are of no value but the Borza is? I will avoid just Greek or FYROM historians since that may violate objectivity.Fair enough? After all I assume that German,British and American sources have no axe to grind.
lazar

Ancient Sources Only - Please

Post by lazar »

Only ancient Sources, Please
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Hi Demetrios,I had no real intention of entering into a discussion on the ethnicity of the Makedones,however I guess I've put my foot in it now, and need to make some sort of response to keep face :(I do however firmly believe there is much more to this topic than current political agendas. I see nothing wrong with discussing the possible ethnicity of the Makedones of the ancient world.There have been a number of narratives I have come across that, in my opinion don't stack up, in relationship to the Makedones being Hellenes. Perhaps they never will!If I may, I would like to begin our journey of inquiery in a slightly of the subject manner.If agreeable, I'd like to commence discussion with the north western geographical area of modern Greece, particularly the area known as Epirus.
The area is of significance as most know, the mother of Alexander was an Epirot, (of the Mollosian tribe)and plays a relatively significant part in Mecedonian history.In your opinion, would you consider the tribes of Epirus to be of Hellenic origin? Sorry for the nature of my questioning, its just I find it rather more personal and interesting asking the smaller questions rather than writing lengthy narratives that then need to be broken down with a multitude of responses.
look forward to your response.
By the way, I don't hold any personal grudges, etc. against people who disagree with me, nor do I hope people will hold grudges against me. Purely a discussion where both parties can agree to disagree.:)
cheers!
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My favorite quote. By Arrian:

Post by jorgios »

It mine mean something, or it might not:Page 100 of the Penguin Classics "Campaigns of Alexander"During his stay there,Alexander was visited by envoys from Athens with a request for liberation of Athenian prisoners of war, who had been captured on the Granicus fighting for Persia and were at the time in Macedonia under close confinement with the other 2000 prisoners. But for the moment, at any rate,the request was not granted, and the envoys were forced to return with their mission unfulfilled. For Alexander felt that, with the war against Persia still on his hands, it would be dangerous to relax severity towards anyone of Greek nationality who had consented to fight for Asia against HIS OWN COUNTRY.
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by yiannis »

Epirus was a Hellenic region since ancient times. The most important oracle of the Hellenic world, Dodona, was situated there. It's presence it documented since Homeric times (mentioned in both the Iliad and Odyssey) and it was closed in the 4th century AD. Emperor Julian was the last one to ask for an oracle.
In recent excavations there were hundreds of small led plates with inscriptions on them. As it turned out, these were questions of the worshipers to Zeus. One of them was asking "Lysanias asks Zeus, is the child, that the pregnant woman Annyla bears, mine or not?"!. Some things never change :-)I won't come into the discussion "are the Macedonians Greeks?". In my mind, there's no question that they are.
However, it seems that the answer to this question has become a matter of faith, rather than archaeology or science!
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Hi Yannis,I agree in may respects it has come down to a matter of faith, either way it makes for interesting discussion, and I genuinely mean discussion, nothing more nothing less. :) However since you have taken the time to respond I feel there are a number of contentious issues that arise with the Epirotic tribes being considered Hellenic.An obvious discussion point (in my mind) arises when reading Thucydides account of the battle between Cnemus and and the Arcanians supported by Phormio. In this account, Thycydides distinguishes between Hellenic troops and that of native troops. Included among the native troops are a number of Epirotic tribes ,including that of the Molossians.It would appear, in Thycydides account then,as someone that was a contemporary of the period, the Epirots were not considered as Hellenes.Interested in your response
DimitriosPoliorketes

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

Smitty, I do not hold grudges against you or any other board poster.I did get a little annoyed because you seem to suggest the sources I was using were some how not valid.I went out of my way to use NON GREEK authors.I frequently quoted Wilken because his I beleive he laid out quite eloquently in his chaper on Phillip the ethnicity of the Macedonians.While Wilken certainly stated the Macedonians were perceived to be some what foreign to the Southern Greeks he firmly stated with strong evidence that they were a Greek tribe that remained in the north.Have you read Wilkens book ? Are famililiar with the chapter I am referring to. Your question regarding Epirus is valid since that is one half of ATGS ancestry.I will address that in an other post . I would apprexciate it if you give your definition of what qualified a group Greek.This is central to the issue. Please be specific. Sorry if my reation was a little strong.I try to be polite to ther posters.Example I may dissagree with Marcus on occasions but I have also stated I respect his opinion. Dimitrios PS My position that Macedonians were decendents of original Greek tribes that remained in the north is supported by many historians -NON GREEK
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by yiannis »

It appears to me that Epirus was inhabited by Illyrians to the north and Hellenes in the south as well as many other, difficult to distinguish, people amongst them. Molossus was said to have been born of a union between Neoptolemus and Andromache.
Ruins of Greek cities are scattered all around the region and Epirus is considered to be the cradle of Dorian tribes. So yes, the Epirots were Hellenes.
In the early centuries of the second millennium B.C. three basic groups of Greek-speaking peoples can be distinguished: a) the South-Eastern group (in the NW part of Thessaly), whose principal representatives were the Ionians, b) the Eastern group (W. Macedonia), with two dialect subgroups, the Arcadian and the Aeolian and c) the Western group, of which the tribe of the Makednoi was the most populous.
It is a modern notion, that Greeks were those who we know from the classical era. Philosophers, scientists and artists who fought against eastern despots preserving the "western world". If these are the qualities that define "Greekness" then fine, Greeks are the Athenians, Spartans and (maybe) Corinthians. But the Hellenic world was much bigger, with colonies spread all around the Mediterranean and tribes that were far from the "classical era" ideals.
So could the "Epirots" or the Macedonians be Greeks? Certainly these "tribesmen" who were ruled by kings instead of speaking their free will, were no "Hellenes". Especially in the eyes of Demosthenes and especially at a time when they made an impressive entry in the power game.Thucydides mentioning of the Epirots amongst the barbarians may either mean that they were barbarian to his eyes or that they were fighting on the barbarians side.Achilles: "Zeus Archon, Dodonean, Pelasgian, who dwells afar, ruling on rough wintered Dodona, surrounded by the Selloi, the interpreters of your divine will, whose feet are unwashed and sleep on the ground". The Iliad 16:127
http://www.georama.gr/eng/history/oracles/01.html
DimitriosPoliorketes

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

Smitty we of course have Aristotle who mentioned that the first people to refer to themselves as Greeks were from Epirus. also The Ptolemaic Claudius, said : "ARHEGONOS HELLAS EPIRUS", meaning that Epirus with it's religious centre Dodoni was the beginning (root) of Greece. Of course your aware of the Royal House claiming ties to Achilles.Why would a non Greek people claim such ancestry? Your example of Thucydides (partly of Thracian ancestry), the Epirotes were "barbarians." though valid is strictly an Athenian perception.Archeological evidence from Epirus shows that the Epiroti were in fact speaking Greek and using Greek symbols at that time.What should Athenian perception be the standard of measuring Greekness ? In addition there is strong archeological evidence that earliest Greek speaking people emerged in Epirus.Tombs predating but resembling Mycenae were first found in Epirus. While I do not doubt that both Eprirus and Macedonia had some foreign influence being on the northern boundry of the Greek world (Illyrian,Thracian)there origins both lie in the the early Greek speaking world.This is NOT exclusive to the north.Greek tribes who went south also encountered pre non indoeuropean Greek peoples perhaps cultural more advanced and were influenced Why would the 1st religious center of the Greeks be in Epirus and why would the Greek Gods be home on Mt Olympus in Macedonia? My position -Early Greek tribes originated in Northern Greece.Southern Greeks preceived the northerners as some what barbaric since they held on to Greek tribal customs that were long out dated in the South.
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Hi Yannis and Demetrios,
I appreciate the feedback, and Demetrios I apologise if my earlier posting sounded hostile, it was not meant to be the case. Unfortunately when writing quickly, incorrect/misinterprative phrasing can occur, and I'm sorry once again :)
Regarding your responses, and If I read correctly, they both follow a similar theme; i.e due to certain Hellenes not being as progressive as others
particularly those down south, also due to their political institutions resembling something from the Homeric era, these people were hence deemed to be 'barbarians'. basically snobbed off by the others!Unfortunately I don't think the literature of old supports that view, and is more so a modern point of view.Thucydides briefly discusses in his introductory how there are indeed some who maintain the 'old ways' and then there are those of the more progressive state. The comparison is very brief and basically relates to how some folks still carry weapons day to day as the Ozolian Locrians, the Aetolians the Arcanians and others in their locality still do, where as others of the state don't. Never the less, the inference is they are all still Hellenes - he does not refer to them as being bararians .Regarding what constitutes a 'Hellene', Thucydides again can help us. Fortunately enough, whilst discussing the Trojan war, Thucydides expresses his belief of what constitutes a 'Hellene'. " By Hellenic, I mean here both those who took on the name city by city, as the result of common language, and those who later were all called by the common name".Essentially, 'Hellenic', according to Thucydides had little to do with whether one resided in the 'poleis' or lived under a Monarchy. He believed Hellenes were those who called themselves such and also spoke the common language; over all these people could easily identify each other and took the common name, 'Hellene'. It would seem rather apparant to me, and I can't see why not others , that the Molossians did not speak the common language and could not be identified as being Hellenic, by others who took the common name. It had nothing to do with Monarchies or democratically elected governments.So then, would I be wrong ( and I may be! ) in saying, the Molossions were a non Hellenic people?
cheers!
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by yiannis »

Smity, what you write is true, from your point of view. But as you stated some quotes, I can easily quote others (greeks as well as Persian, Jews or Egyptians) who mention otherwise, that Macedonians were regarded as Greeks. That's why I say that it comes down to a matter of belief rather than science. What would you think are the distinct characteristics that separate Macedonians (ancient ones) from the Greeks? Why were these characteristics destroyed and not present in the kingdoms that the Macedonians created after the death of AtG? Why do we speak of the spread of Greek culture and not the Macedonian one? Why we speak of Bactrian-Greek or Indian-Greek kingdoms? Was the Macedonian culture so easy and so weak to be assimilated by the Greek one? If yes then why weren't the Romans simirarly assimilated? When I try to answer these questions, I always reach the conclusion that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe at the fringes of civilized world. Of course I always keep in mind that I might be biased towards the Greek scenario (I wonder why? :-)With much respect for your views,
Regards,
Yiannis
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