Are the Macedonians, Greek?

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smittysmitty
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Hi Yiannis,
I think one of the major problems most moderns have with histroy is they find it hard to seperate the difference between being 'Hellenic' as oppossed to the notion of 'Hellenism'., and, it is a somewhat difficult thing to seperate.
Regarding the Romans, indeed they maintained their ethnicity ,however there can be no denial in them also being 'Hellenistic'. If I have a correct picture of history, what brought about the demise of the Roman empire was essentially a power base struggle between West and Eastern empires; and yes it was Hellenism that prevailed in the east.Even in our modern western world, we still actively study the classics, because Hellenism still plays an integral part of our lives. We see it in poetry, the arts, sculpure, architecture, medicine,language etc.etc. yet we are not all Hellenes.When reading the literature of old, I think it most important we acknowledge the differnce between being Hellenic as opposed to adopting Hellenism with its broad cultuaral/social implications.I don't know that I've expressed my self very well in this post, hope it makes some sence. I've had a long day at work :(.In any case, time for me to have some food, and shower up.
cheers!
DimitriosPoliorketes

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

Smitty your ignoring evidence that was presented .It is fact that Epiroti inscriptions before Thucydides were in Greek.That means they spoke a common language.You seem to brush aside the evidence that the ORACLE of DODONA preceded that of Delphi.You ignore Aristotles quote that the 1st Greeks were from Epirus.You ignore the Homeric connetion between Achilles and Epirus.You ignore the fact that the Royal House of Epirus claimed decent from Achilles.That ACHILLES came from the original HELLAS in Homers day.The Epiriti spoke a strong dialect of Greek.In fact the DORIC dialect is still spoken in remote parts of EPIRUS today and is barely comprehensibe to most modern Greeks but it is undesputablly very ancient Greek. You focus on what quote by an Athenian - Thucydides-and ignore other comprehensive evidence. The Attic dialect was very different then the northern dialect but both were Greek.The Athenians were not the only Greeks and were biased snobs. The Greek tribes originated in northern Greece NOT Athens and their is plential of archeological and testimentary evidence to support it.
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The Epirotes:"Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996),

Post by jorgios »

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland) North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia.Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career. The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell. An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported
Dimitrios

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by Dimitrios »

"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13) Smitty,

Once again early Greek origins are specificly mentioned for Epirus.While the Romans may have adopted some Greek customs and the myth about refugees of Troy they never claimed themselves to be Greek or decendent from them.In addition Romans claimed ties to Latins ,Sabines,Etruscans ect.All areas of Roman origins in central Italy attest to this.Names of Provences ect vrs northern Greece where Royal Houses claimed Greek ancestry where ancient place names are Greek ex Oristis,Odomantis ect are distictly Greek and where the archeological findings are distinctly Greek Regards , Dimitrios
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by marcus »

I can't be bothered to read all the messages in this thread, but I will just pick up on one thing you say.Just because all the inscriptions in Epirus, before or after Thucydides, were in Greek, does not satisfy me as proof that the Epirotes were Greek. French was the court language in Russia during the 18th and 19th centuries, but it didn't make them French. Persian was the lingua franca across most of the middle east and India during the 17th-19th centuries, but it didn't make everyone Persian. The Romans put up inscriptions in Latin all over the Empire, whether or not the locals were Roman.Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that the Epirotes *weren't* Greek, I'm just saying that the evidence of inscriptions, to me, isn't very useful proof.All the bestMarcus
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Hi Dimitrios,
I am not trying to ignore points that you raise, far from it. I will address these issues , but as I expressed in an earlier post, one point at a time. Please keep in mind, I'm not attempting to sway your beliefs ( highly unlikely I will :) ) but present as I'm sure you are aware, quite legitimate arguments,as to the non Hellenic nature of ,at this point the Epirots/Molossians.It would seem that a period of Hellenization did occur in Epirus (as distinct to them being Hellenes)
and occurs in Makedon perhaps a generation or two earlier during the reign of Alexander I. ( I'll cover that in due course).One point you raise is that of Achillies and the royal Molossian house. It would appear the Epirots were unfamiliar with his existance until this Hellenization period. The Molossions/Epirots, had their own form of hero/god worship and the one that best fit the mould of Achillies was named 'Aspetus'.Aspetus had been long accepted and was firmly placed in Eprotic tradition as attested to by Plutarch.Plutarch says " This was how it came about that Achilles was granted divine honours in Epirus and was known as Aspetus in the nomenclature of the region".I doubt the Homeric poem reached this part of the world until King Tharyps of the Mollosians came to power and could see the benefits of Hellenizing. I need to make a coffee, will continue later.
cheers!
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Back! ahh, nice coffee!
Hi Marcus :)
King Tharyps, who was but a minor during the time of the Peloponnesian war, presumably after much exposure to various Hellenic factions whether they be Spartan or Athenian, would later adopt Hellenism among his house as an adult. Again this is attested by Plutarch and historians of the time."It was Tharrhypas, so the historians say, who was the first of their successors to make himself famous by introducing Greek customs and letters and who imposed order on life of his cities by promulgating humane laws".Greek customs and letters? as opposed to what?Not really a case of Athenian snobbery?In any event, I'm boring myself now, time for some alternate reading. I've got a 13 hour shift tomorrow :( not looking forward to it.cheers!
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Marcus,

Post by jorgios »

I would like to ask a brief question:If excavations took place in Russia, in say 1100 years from now, would you be confident in saying that all the inscriptions would be in French, even those that only came from 19th century layer?Kind regards,Jorge
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Re: Marcus, and one more thing...

Post by jorgios »

The people from South-Greece who colonized Epirus were Doric speakers, and the Attic dialect was the specific choice for "Hellenization", however, the Epirotes spoke and wrote in a dialect of North-West Greek. If only someone can explain how the Doric and Attic speakers managed to Hellenize the Epirotes in the Northwest dialect, i would be interested in hearing this theory.
Dimitrios

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by Dimitrios »

Smitty why does the Illiad specificly mention DODONA -EPRIRUSLord Zeus, Dodonean, Pelasgian Zeus, you who dwell far off and rule over wintry Dodona, and around you live tour prophets, the Selli, whose feet are unwashed and who sleep on the groundOdysseus, the hero of the poem, comes to Dodona to ask the oracular Oak-tree how he should return to his home on Ithaca, secretly or openly?(Odyssey XIV, 427 ff ; XIX,296 ff.). Even in the 4th c. BC a belief in Dodona's great antiquity was prevalent. If Achilles is associated with Epirus in the Illiad well before your period of so called Helleniztion then there is Homeric influence in Epirus. Once again AristotleAccording to Aristotle (Meteorologika I, 14), the great flood in the time of Deucalion occurred "around about ancient Greece", which was located "around about Dodona and the Achelous", because that was where "those who were then called Graikoi, and now HELLENES" dwelt If the 1st people to call themselves Greeks dwelt in Epirus Graikoi ( whom he associates with the earliest Hellenes) then obviously Aristotle beleives that Epirus was a very important place in the early Greek world. Why is it that the 1st TOMBS predating but resembling Myceance appear in Epirus?Why not Attica since you seem to associate Athenians with being the most Greek. Are you familiar with the accounts of the earliest Greek peoples.Hesoid mentions South Thessally ,Mt Ossa,Mt Olympus.Herodotus mentions the same area and Mt Pindus.Aristotle Epirus.The oldest Oracle is DODONA the Gods are at home on MT OLYMPUS.So areas mentioned are all in central and northern Greece none in the south.This is where the Greek tribes emerged.
Dimitrios

Re: Marcus, and one more thing...

Post by Dimitrios »

Herodotus
The following took part in the war: from the PELOPONESE , the Lacedaemonians provided sixteen ships; the Corinthians the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen ships, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezenians five, the Hermioneans three. ALL of these EXCEPT the Hermioneans are DORIAN and MACEDONIAN stock and had last come from Erineus and PINDUS and the DROYPIAN region. The Hermioneans are Dryopians, driven out of the country now called Doris by Herakles and the Malians)
Dimitrios

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by Dimitrios »

Smitty .

In an earlier you post you implied that I only read authors that supported my position.Not true I have read several of Badian's and Borza's writings and others. Lets talk about Borza for a secend.A vehement opponent of the pro school.( I am sure your familiar with his position) Borza dismisses Herodotus testimony as essentially Macedonian propaganda in origin.Fair enough. Herdotus stated that tribes associated with Helen were known as Macedonians when they settled on Mt PINDUS.( I assume your familiar with the quote) Yet Borza also states
From the Book Makedonika
pp 149-58
Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander's Court
by Eugene Borza
First , the matter of the Hellenic origins of the Macedonians:Nicholas Hammond's general conclusion that the origin of the Macedonians lies in the pool of proto-Hellenic speakers who migrated out of the PINDUS mountains during the Iron Age is acceptable. After refuting what he beleives was not an authentic account in Herodotus source he then states the Macedonians origins among PROTO Hellenic speakers(early Greeks,Myceneans also referred to as PROTO GREEKS) from PINDUS is acceptable. Thus, he winds up accepting the place of origin for the MACEDONIANS to be exactly where HERODOTUS states -IN THE PINDUS MTS among early GREEK peoples. Have you read Hammond's arguments ? He had spent over 50 yrs studying the Archeology of Northern Greece.In a Book titled the GREEKS he describes early Hellenic origins in northern Greece using both archeological and testimentary evidence.Have you read the German authors or any of their works that verify my points? Beloch,Wilken,Hoffman Hope you enjoyed your coffee ( Star Bucks) I assume . Reagards Dimitri
Dimitrios

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by Dimitrios »

The Romans put up inscriptions in Latin all over the Empire, whether or not the locals were Roman. Correct However,did the Romans ever refer to Gaul as a place of origin ? or Britan? or Iberia? or as a center of worship among early Latin tribes? The beleif among Greeks that Dodona was the 1st religious center of the Hellenes does however add to the the archeological evidence. Again this is not to say that there were no non Greek influences in Epirus.But there were in the south as well. Crete with the Minoan culture pre Greek ,was thus Hellenized by Greek invaders ,Acheans,Dorians. Thus are Cretans Hellenized Minoans? Athenians Hellenized Pelasgians ? Marcus, though I am convinced that Epiroti tribes are decendent of very early Greek peoples who appeared barbaric in terms of dialect to the Southerners since they remained isolated in the north lets discuss the term Hellenized. Take the English.Prior to the Anglo Saxons England was was composed of Celtic populations ,Early Britons and Roman elements.When the Anglo Saxons came from Germany they absorbed all these conquered elements addded a new language thus one can say they became AngloSaxonized or even Germanisized.Once they became AngloSaxonized thus they became a distict nation. Greek tribes had to come from somewhere so one can say that that all of Greece became Hellanized over a period of time.The archeological evidence early religious center Dodona ,Olympus firmly states they came northern Greece.Greek tribes Hellanized Greece the way Anglo Saxons AngloSaxonized England. Warnings -To much of this board may Alexandranize. Best Regards , Dimitri
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by smittysmitty »

Hi Dimitrios,I don't think I ever implied anything apart from not being familiar with what works you had read.Regarding there being two schools of thought on the subject matter, to be honest, I don't care much for either. I try to gain knowledge and understanding of the period by reading extensively/repeatedly the ancient literature at hand, and ultimately find my own conclusions, which I may add change from time to time :)I have been knoewn to purchase some 'modern' works more for the purpose of seeing if they agree with my own interpretaions and thoughts. My own experience with 'moderns' is they tend to create more myth than reality; and to be honest I don't like waisting time trying to research their misquoting, misrepresentation as well as thir misunderstanding.Regarding Hesiod, Homer and Herodotus, and the Oracle of Dodona, I hope to touch later , I'm currently three quaters the way through a thirteen hour shift at work, (killing me).Interesting though, that you should place emphasis on poetry that has been handed down orally over centuries as opposed to contemporary accounts. Never mind we'll touch on them shortly.cheers!
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Re: Marcus,

Post by marcus »

No, because The Russians didn't set up inscriptions in the way that the Greeks did. But that's not really the point - just because a language is used doesn't mean to say that it's the language of the people.All the bestMarcus
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