Are the Macedonians, Greek?

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Kuringlas

Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by Kuringlas »

I would like to pose the question, Are Macedonians Greek?
I would be inclined to say yes, macedonians are greek.
Afew of many reasons.
Alexanders Mom, was from Epirus, this would imply that the macedons must have had good relations with neighbouring greek states.
Turks describe the Macedons as 'Greeks with big hats'...(cant remember source)
Written Language, Religion, Cuisine, etc...It is my opinion the 'question' was only CREATED by the then soviet blocks to destabilize the region to expand its empire.
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marcus
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Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by marcus »

The "question", as it were, was being used as a propaganda tool at least as early as the 340s BC, by the Athenians.The problem is, the idea of "Greek" in Alexander's time was more of an idealogical/social/cultural thing - speaking the language was only a part of it, and certainly geography had very little to do with it. There were many things that Macedonia's detractors said that the Macedonians did which were distinctly "non-Greek". On the other hand, the Macedonian kings had been promoting "Greekness" at their court for about 150 years before Alexander.So there isn't a "yes" or "no" answer. What is absolutely, positively, utterly and completely irrelevant to the question about Ancient Macedonia, is the distinction between modern Greece and Macedonia.All the bestMarcus
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karla

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by karla »

Well, here we go again. I hope this one doesn't turn out as bad as the last time this topic came up! So, are Macedonians Greek? If you are referring to Macedonians of Alexander's time, I say NO...Aside from a cultural difference between them, Greeks themselves during that time did not consider MAcedonians as Greeks; they saw Macedonians as "barbaric" and "uncivilized", if you will. In fact, the Greek states were generally opposed to Phillip, he had to "force" his reign upon them by conquering them. It might be safe to say, though, that Phillip really wanted to be part of the Greek coalition at that time, and most upper-class Macedonians were taught Greek language and culture. Anyways, there's so much more to say about this issue. The problem is, as the other reply mentioned, that most people are inclined to think of ancient Macedonia and Greece as the same with the current ones. Karla
DimitriosPoliorketes

THE MACEDONIANS WERE GREEK LIVING IN THE HOMERIC AGE

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

An Excellent description was recently published in Frank Holt's book.THIS IS AN EXCELLENT DESCRIPTION OF THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WRITTEN RECENTLY BY FRANK HOLT HISTORIAN!!!!http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/N1684.bra ... 199?GREEKS OUTSIDE of Macedonia, Philip and his subjects appeared backward and barbaricGÇöthey were like the hard-riding, hard-fighting, hard-drinking COWBOYS of the lawless AMERICAN frontier to the SOCIALITES of nineteenth-century BOSTON and NEW YORK.Macedonia was a tough place that bred a tough population. To survive in the midst of so many enemies on the NORTHERN fringes of the GREEK world, the Macedonians held fast to the heroic warrior code of HOMER's ILLIAD and Odyssey. They seemed a TIME WRAP back to the Trojan War and the bellicose Bronze Age. In battles, brawls, and drinking bouts, the Macedonians measured a man from king to commoner by the implacable STANDARDS of ACHILLES and AGEMEMNON Risks ran high among such aggressive egos, and no offense passed unanswered. Even kings could not afford a slip in the company of such warriors; hesitation or error meant speedy elimination. Philip thus led his troops with conspicuous bravado, enduring horrendous battle injuries to his face, arm, collarbone, and leg that left him half-blind and hobbling the rest of his life.23 These were the legitimizing wounds of a warrior king.
WHAT MADE OUR NORTHERN GREEK ANCESTORS APPEAR BARBARIC TO THEIR SOUTHERN KIN WAS KEEPING OUTDATED HOMERIC INSTITUTIONS ONCE COMMON IN ALL GREEK TRIBES BEFORE THE CITY STATE EMERGED. ATHENIAN CULTURAL SNOBS DID NOT HAVE A MONOPOLOY ON GREEKNESS !!!
DimitriosPoliorketes

Re: THE MACEDONIANS WERE GREEK LIVING IN THE HOMERIC AGE

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

they were like the hard-riding, hard-fighting, hard-drinking COWBOYS of the lawless AMERICAN frontier to the SOCIALITES of nineteenth-century BOSTON and NEW YORK. Here is a perfect example of what Holt is conveying in his analogyAndrew Jackson, a frontier general and Indian fighter, was elected seventh PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES on a platform that proclaimed him the champion of DEMOCRACY and of the common man. ... portrayed him as an ignorant and uncouth BARBARIAN. Yet the Jacksonian Democracy ...
http://www.grolier.com/presidents/aae/bios/07pjack.html
DimitriosPoliorketes

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

Hi Karla, I would recommend Wilken's book who best addresses this topic.hope this one doesn't turn out as bad as the last time this topic came up! So, are Macedonians Greek? Depends on how you define Greek. Certainly they were different then the Athenians but their traditions were very similar to the early Greek tribes. Wilken

"And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were GREEK race and AKIN to the DORIANS." The Dorian's were perceived by the so called Athenian cultural snob's as being uncoth and spoke a very backward dialect kind of backwoodsmenish." Illyrian and Thracian can thus be recognized in Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only TRIFLES compared with the GREEK character of the MACEDONIAN nationality; for example, the names of the true FULL-BLOODED MACEDONIANS, especially of the princes and nobles, are PURELY GREEK in their FORMATION and SOUNDS".
If you are referring to Macedonians of Alexander's time, I say NO... If your going by Athenian perceptions perhaps.The Athenians did not have a monopoly on Greekness.In fact Athenian's made references to other Greeks being barbaric whom they considered their cultural inferiors. Greeks themselves during that time did not consider MAcedonians as Greeks; Yes and no.The Macedonian Kings did participate in Olympic games.Whether the Argeive story was myth or reality ,the other Greeks however generally accepted their claims.Herodutus did associate the Makedon with the Dorians before the time of Alexander .The Makedon appear in Hesoids geneaoly almost 400 yrs prior to Alexander.Since these testomonies were prior to the time of Phillip it is obvious that they were considered part of the Greek world despite Athenian propaganda. In fact Herodotus associates the MACEDONIANS with the DORIANS whom he said were ORIGINALLY GREEK.He associated the ATHENIANS as PELASGIAN whom he claimed were not originally GREEK but HELLENIZED. German historian BELLOCH actually considered the Macedonians the purest of the original Hellenic tribes since the Greek tribes that advanced South became heavily mixed with pre Hellenic non aryan populations.
In fact, the Greek states were generally opposed to Phillip, he had to "force" his reign upon them by conquering them. As they were opposed to both SPARTAN,ATHENIAN and THEBEAN HEGOMONY prior .
KingPoilioketes

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?-response to Karla cont

Post by KingPoilioketes »

and most upper-class Macedonians were taught Greek language and culture. They were taught the ATTIC dialect and were influenced by Athenian culture. Since the Greek world included many CITY states as well as KINGDOM's- THESSALLY,EPIRUS and MACEDONIA it is impossible to define what was and was not Greek since the Greek world included many different political systems dialects ect but Greek peoples had other things in common such as a common language, religion and customs ect. Asking whether MACEDONIA is Greek is like asking was PRUSSIA German prior to modern Germany.Or asking whether AUSTRIANS are GERMANIC peoples despite the fact they are not politically part of modern Germany?
DimitriosPoliorketes

MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

Turks describe the Macedons as 'Greeks with big hats'...(cant remember source) Written Language, Religion, Cuisine, etc...

HI Pete-It was actually the Persians who described MACEDONIANS as GREEKS wearing the hat. FROM HAMMOND The next evidence comes from PERSIA. At the turn of the 6TH CENTURY BC the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples of their province in Europe, and one of them was the `yauna takabara', which meant `GREEKS WEARING THE HAT'. There were Greeks in Greek city-states here and there in the province, but they were of various origins and not distinguished by a common hat. However, the Macedonians wore a dis-¡tinctive hat, the KAUSIA. We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modi-¡fied Hesiod's genealogy by making Macedon not a cousin, but a son of Aeolus, thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people. Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive (N.G.L. Hammond, The Macedonian State, p.12-13).
stavros

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by stavros »

Hi Marcusthe idea of "Greek" in Alexander's time was an idealogical/social/cultural thing. i do not understand this line. the romans spoke greek, developed greek ways of thinking, language, architecture etc.., socially at the time being greek was more cool than roman, but they always considered themselves Roman.please explain.regards,stavros
Thaleia

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by Thaleia »

There is no doubt that Macedonia was and is greek. Some foreign countries tried to show that Macedonians weren't greek but Bulgarians or anything else because they thought that they would take some of Alexander's greatness, glory and fame.
Macedonians were Dorians so they are pure-Greeks. As far as the opinion of Athens is concerned the people of Athens and especially Dhmosthenhs called Macedonians "barbarians" because they couldn't accept that Athens had stoped being the greatest power in Greece. We can't talk any more about this topic because it is cleared.
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Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by marcus »

Hi Thaleia,It's far from cleared, unfortunately.Marcus
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Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by marcus »

Well, for a start, the Romans were idealogically, culturally and socially *Roman*, and therefore they weren't Greek. They also didn't operate the idealogy of the polis, which in the Classical period was a key factor in what comprised Hellenism.Speaking Greek was an essential part of being Greek, of course it was... but ultimately being able to speak Greek didn't make one Greek.All the bestMarcus
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DimitriosPolirketes

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by DimitriosPolirketes »

They also didn't operate the idealogy of the polis, . Hi Marcus ,as always I respect your opinion though we may disagree, These are political differences.Prior to the POLIS all the GREEK world lived in HOMERIC TYPE KINGDOMS which was preserved in Northern Greecee. I agree that speaking Greek alone would not make them Greek but the institutions of the MACEDONIANS were actually very GREEK from an ealier era.I will again refer to Wilken's book."Having stayed in the extreme NORTH they were unable to particpated in the proggressive civilization of the tribes went futher SOUTH"
"-most of the inhabitants were expelled,yet many stayed behind and in the course of time were assimulated into the lower classes-The same thing happened with GREEKS who went further SOUTH with the earlier Anatolian poulation""Above all the fundemental features of the Macedonian political institutions are NOT ONLY GREEK but PRIMITIVE GREEK.The old Patriarchal monarchy over people and the Army lasted down to the days of Phillip and Alexander such as ONCE existed in in ALL GREEK tribes " The fact that they retained earlier GREEK institutions that were outdated in the South could also be interpited that they were more traditional Greek. A few ATHENIAN SNOBS who felt that the POLIS was the defining point of Greeknes is to me of no importance.It was the MACEDONIANS not the ATHENIANS who avenged the PERSIANS and spread HELLENISM. Dimitrios
stavros

Re: Are the Macedonians, Greek?

Post by stavros »

helloi know the Romans were "Roman". Essentially what i am trying to say is, why would the Macedonians consider themselves to be Greeks, if they were a different race. That is why i refer back to the romans. even though it was cool to be greek, attain greek language, architecture, culture etc.. at the time, the romans were still romans. Wouldn't the Macedonians take this approach? and not just take a social, cultural approach (whatever the reason was)of trying to blend in with the contemporary Greeks so to speak. I cannot justify calling the ancient macedonians non-greeks, it doesn't make sense, hence putting a whole different perspective on ancient Greek history, like for instance defeating the persians for the glory of greece and the three hundred years of hellenism in the east following the death of Alexander??kind regards,stavros
lazar

Re: MACEDONIANS-GREEKS WEARING THE HAT-PERSIAN SOURCE

Post by lazar »

Hi Marcus,I agree with you 100%. Looking at todays historians and\or scholars we will see spectrum of claims on the Ancient Macedonians Ethnicity. Yet, reading the posts from this forum members (some of them) one is only able to read about Greek View of the ancient History. Let me refrase it, not supported by all available and\or ancient sources. As you can all see nobody mentions Borza, Badian, Bosworth, Green, Billows, Jaeger,Jouquet, Reed, Nagle, APA, Brunt, and many many more.
Even if we do not rely on todays scholars and\or historians, we are obliged to rely on the ANCIENT SOURCES in seeking the truth. Example: Arrian, Diodorus, Herodotus, Livy, Pausanias, Plutarch, Polibius, Rufus, Josephus, Ptolemy, Kalisthenes, Appian, Demosthenes, Isocrates, and lots of more.

You can not determine someone's ethnicity by having a MYTH and\or comercial use of a language as a MAIN SOURCES for that determination.
More to follow...
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