Macedonias pure Hellenes

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etan e epitas

Macedonias pure Hellenes

Post by etan e epitas »

smitty , why would Alexander and his army march thousand of miles ,climd mountains , cross rivers,deserts face attacks from hostlie tribes along the way to avenge the persians for the Hellenes if he and his army were not Helenic???? would you as Brit go thru such pains and efforts to avenge Germany for invading France??? how many of your fellow Brits do you think you could convince to go along on such a cursade??? why did Alaxader`S mother instill in him that he was a descendent of Achilles and his father claim to be descedant of Hercules AND THE HOUSE OF ARGOS ???? do brits insill in thier children they are lets say descendents of CEASAR HITLER, NAPOLEAN???? smiity the evidence is so insurmountable that Macdonians were Hellenic that one would have to have very limited intelligence to to come to such an obvious conclusion!!!
jason_xander2000

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes

Post by jason_xander2000 »

If Maceedonians were Greeks as you claim, Why did the Greeks undermine Alexander and Plilip every opportunity they got.Why did Alexander have to take Athenians soldiers as hastage to make sure the Athenians behaved, why were the Greeks always making deals with Daroius throughout Alexanders campaigns.Where does Athenian integrity belong when they would welcome deals and work with the Persians to bring down Alexander.As you say Alexander represented the Greeks in this war of vengeance the sworn enemy of the Greeks but why then did the Greeks continue to work with Darius behind Alexanders back, Towards the end of Alexanders reign it showed the Persians to be more loyal to Alexander than the Hypocritical high minded Greeks of that time.Accept the Greek thinking of that time, they regarded Alexander,Philip and Macedonians as semi Barbaric and at the same time Macedonia and Alexander did more for Greece than the Greeks them selves.Calling Macedonians Greeks is the same as Calling Scots or the Irish, English.The Greeks despised and were jelous to death Of Macedonia and Alexander, As the accomplished what the so called intelligent Greeks could not, to unify and work together.Its an insult for Alexander to be claimed as Greek and if Greeks must then they have to turn there backs on there own history.Regards Jason
ruthaki
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Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes

Post by ruthaki »

The Macedonians were tribal people (likely Dorians) who were united by Philip. The Macedonian royalty invited Greeks (artists, politicians, philosophers, dramatists) to Pella as guests and Greek was spoken in the Macedonian court. But the Greeks resented Philip and the Macedonian occupation of their territory. Regarding the Macedonians going to conquor the Persians, remember that Xerxes marched across Macedonia to begin with, attempting to seize territory. And Philip had expansionist ideas as well as going in to take back territories of Asia Minor that the Persians had seized. Alexander carried on his father's plan after Philip was assassinated.
chris
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Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes

Post by chris »

HiAs a point of interest, I wonder what the precise make up of ATG's army was towards the end of the campaign, in terms of origin?Chris
stavros

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes-

Post by stavros »

hellothe more we post the obvious about ancient macedonians, hence greek, the more i think we are pushing shit uphill. a few anti-greeks on this website personally. ZHTO H ELLAS!!stavros
agesilaos
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Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes-

Post by agesilaos »

The Macedonians were not pure anything, other than Macedonian and they would probably only have styled themselves such after Philip prior to that their cantonal identity would surely have been stronger; just as the Greeks of the time were first and foremost citizens of their state and Hellenes only in contrast to the barbarians.As a frontier nation Macedon would have a plethora of mixed race families with Illyrian and Thracian blood and Southern Greek.Today's populations have been affected by Roman, OstroGothic, Slavic, Latin, Bulgar and Ottoman conquests each of which will have affected the purity of any mythically pure bloodline. So let's just face up to the fact that every twentieth Century race is bastardized to hell and talk of purity belongs in Jane Austin novels.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
gb
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Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes-

Post by gb »

"and talk of purity belongs in Jane Austin novels"Capital!
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smittysmitty
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Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes

Post by smittysmitty »

hi Leonidis,I feel rather flattered that you should single me out, but I guess I opened my mouth :(In relationship to your statement on ATG mobilizing an army with some Pan Hellenic ideal in mind, I'm afraid I can think of a multitude of reasons why that isn't the case. Primarily power! Remember, this very army is the army that subjugated the Hellenes prior to the Persian campaign.As regards the myth origins, well! I think it fairly dubious placing much weight on such matters, furthermore I suspect a fair amount of syncretism is apparant in our sources of the time. I doubt we really have much of an idea on the religiosity of the Makedones and surrounding peoples, unfortunately. Perhaps time will expose more knowledge.In anycase, you are welcome to believe what you like, and I'm not here to challenge your views, only to suggest there are alternate interpretations and justifiably so.
cheers!
DimitriosPoliorkes

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes-

Post by DimitriosPoliorkes »

As a frontier nation Macedon would have a plethora of mixed race families with Illyrian and Thracian blood and Southern Greek. I would partly agree with this statement however it is very clear that the names of the MACEDONIANS esspecially the full blooded nobles were clearly GREEK in SOUND and FORMATION and native to MACEDONIA ,in addition to place names of tribes,LYNGOS ODOMANTIS ect.No doubt that northern GREEK states had foreign populations that became absorbed yet the same is true in the South which had PRE HELLENIC populations. The term HELLENE gradually became used by Greek speaking peoples as a general description.In the ILLIAD only ACHILLES area was referred to as HELLAS.Greek speaking peoples used various names to decribe themseleves and some like the MAKEDONE kept on to their tribal name which is distictly GREEK meaning highlander or tall one. EX French are decendents of GERMANIC FRANKS ,ROMANS and OF COURSE KELTIC GAULS who eventually evolved into a nation called FRANCE.
DimitriosPoliorketes

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes-

Post by DimitriosPoliorketes »

Stavros, I do not think that any of these people are neccasarily anti Greek.Sometimes good people can disagree.I do beleive however,that a historical revisionist trend began by Badian as become the new orthoxy and unfortunately has influence many people esspecially at a time when archeological discoversies have been consistently verifying the Hellenic origin of the Macedonians.Unfortunately the tons Scholars who are in agreement with the HellenoDoric origins of the Macedonians do not get the same press.Lets face it contraversey sells.
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and "Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region, migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends identify or link the people with the Dorians." John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University Press, Massachusetts, 1983 In the long run Stavros we Greeks are to blame for not countering the revisionist movement strong enough in its early stages.
DimirtriosPoliorketes

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes

Post by DimirtriosPoliorketes »

Maceedonians were Greeks as you claim, Why did the Greeks undermine Alexander and Plilip every opportunity they got. Not all Greeks some.The Thessalians were Alexanders closest allies and the Thessalian cavalry played a very important role in ATG army.I suppose they were non Greek correct?Why did Alexander have to take Athenians soldiers as hastage to make sure the Athenians behaved, Ask yourself why did some Athenians like IOSOCRATES call on Phillip top lead a crusade against the Persians as vengenge.Some Athenians supported Phillip others did not.The old political guard did not want to give up power just like todays politicians.
why were the Greeks always making deals with Daroius throughout Alexanders campaigns. For the same reason Greeks in the past did.Greeks resented other Greek states Hemogeny whether it was Athens Sparta or Macedonia.Persians were masters of playing Greek states against one another.Persian armies had Greek mercenaries in large numbers well before ATGWhere does Athenian integrity Why you constantly bringing up Athens as if they were the only Greeks?and at the same time Macedonia and Alexander did more for Greece than the Greeks them selves. Why ? If they were not Greek would they go through such efforts?Calling Macedonians Greeks is the same as Calling Scots or the Irish, English. No its not .Macedonians considered themselves decendents from Greek heros ,Greek Gods,and Greek Royal Houses.The Irish never considered themselves decendendent from the English or Anglo Saxons.
The Greeks despised and were jelous to death Of Macedonia and Alexander, Indeed- as they despised Sparta during its Hegomony.Greek states were constantly at war.
Its an insult for Alexander to be claimed as Greek Why he himself said he was as did his ancestors the Macedonian Kings and Epiroti Royal Family.Are you saying he was a lier?and if Greeks must then they have to turn there backs on there own history. So lets see we with northern Greek ancestry our turning our backs on northern Greeks such as Macedonians,Epiroties and Thessalians.Only Athenians count as Greek correct? Regards , Dimtrios
jorgios
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dont forget these quotes:

Post by jorgios »

Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers." - Alexander the Great speaking to Persian messengers sent to him - PseudoKallisthenes 1.37.9-13And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended." - Flavious Josephus (11.8.5)
lazar

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes

Post by lazar »

Demetrios you wrote:Ask yourself why did some Athenians like IOSOCRATES call on Phillip top lead a crusade against the Persians as vengenge.Some Athenians supported Phillip others did not.The old political guard did not want to give up power just like todays politicians
Isocrates in his letter to Philip states that the king Philip is a king of Macedonia ruler over the People of NON-KINDRED RACE!!!
By the way he did not get response from Philip
lazar

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes-

Post by lazar »

They sound greek only because it is written by Greeks, and on the ancient Greek language. That is not neceserilly a PROOF that they had a Greek Names.
There is no Greek name like Philip in todays Greece.
lazar

Re: Macedonias pure Hellenes-

Post by lazar »

Correction!!Macedonian Months are not the same with Greek months of the year. Check again in Josephus writings.Regards
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