hephastion

[Jooles]

The reference to "thighs" would have been well understood by the ancient Greeks. It does not refer to wrestling but to the way the sexual relationship was carried out, at least according to the established Athenian norm i.e. the erastes (lover) had "intercrural" sex that is intercourse between the thighs of the eromenos (beloved). You can check it out in K J Dover "Greek homosexuality". No penetration was ever intended.

[Linda]

The Oxford Classical Dictionary has a good summary of the erastes/eromenos model - under "homosexuality" - it discusses how much was expected by social convention, and how in private things may have been different, and discusses the evidence for this. I think it puts sexual behaviour in its social context very well: ie in Athens and some other Greek states, being penetrated was a major taboo in masculine society, although as I have said, in private, things may have been different. But that wasn't talked about..It is worth browsing the article in a reference library or shop, for those who haven't got a well-thumbed copy on their shelves.Macedonian society did have different conventions, we know.

[amn178]

thanks for the replys...i see alex as the erastes and heph as the eromenos(beloved). i also believe without doubt that there was a sexual attraction/interaction, there is just too much in greek lit i.e. plato to assume otherwise,also as a u.s. marine i've seen first hand how other ultra masculine armies i.e. south korea, thailand turn to some level of homosexuality as a phsycological comfort or warmth during long tours of duty..penetration???...who knows...but what i guess i'm looking for is... what was the attraction for alex? keeping the symposium idea roling...plato sees love between people as filling a deficiency of the other..what was the deficiency for alex...trust in someone or alex and heph's mutual distrust of all others...heph proved himself a capable warrior and leader this cant be denied so he was a full and strong man in his own right and not just some eunuch offering an incontinent release... i'm looking for insight into what level they connected ...i didnt like the new movies portrayal..it seemed forced and superficial

[Kit]

Oh course if the quote attributed to Alexander was accurate, or at least representative, he may well have steered clear of all sexual relations! Al didn't like to feel mortal!regards,kit.

[Manny E]

The sources may have all just been toeing official line when they assigned erastes to Hephaistion and eromenos to Alexander with no further elaboration. First of all, the subject was sacrosanct even to the Romans, who were even more sentimental about Greek love than the Greeks, who were not only comfortably bisexual but rigid about it as well(only male homoerotic relationships were idealized to the degree that it did in Greece, but not in Rome, and almost never in women in both cultures). Having said that, the case for Alexander defying convention must also be presented as a very real possibility, as the same sources (Romans) agree that male status symbols such as beards, a very visible symbol, was something Alexander comfortably did away with and got away with it. My suspicion is that Alexander was sufficiently "comely"-looking to get away with the boy-wonder look for his army, who apparently didn't mind being led into war by someone who was not only genuinely fierce and brave but also easy on the eye. The fact that Alexander was also shorter than most of his generals helped to preserve the boyish-shaven look (as the veterans in the war council turned daily cruggly). Whore that he was, Alexander exploited his meager physical charms to the hilt---and it is lack of imagination on our part to assume that he did not entertain the possibility that there's a guy out there who could "conquer" him in bed. The fact that Hephaistion was not only handsome but also taller than Alexander (that's why Sysigambis bowed to Hephaistion first, mistaking him for Alexander)gives us a clue to a male sexual dynamic recognizable even to bourgeois Judeo-Christians like ourselves. Add to that the common sense conclusion that, as a logistics officer and an army man himself, Hephaistion was physically stronger and heavier than Alexander. Following this reasoning, I also assume that Bagoas, like most Persian eunuchs, was short, because he was castrated before the age of growth spurt in boys(between 12 and 16)--and shorter than Alexander, who had intact testicles all his short life, so to speak. Roxanne, a pretty princess in a hinterland (i.e., undernourished)kingdom, was of similar height to Bagoas. With Bagoas and Roxanne, Alexander wore the pants in the bed-chamber. Stateira, though beautiful and whose parents were tall, was probably taller than Alexander, which was a turn-off given Alexander's vanity, and had sex with her purely for political reproduction. That Alex topped Hephais

[Linda]

Hmm - but also I think he was man enough to face his mortality. He wasn't deluded into thinking he was a god.Linda