Alexander and his mind

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amyntoros
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Post by amyntoros »

athenas owl wrote: . . . As for Renault, though, I thought that that was where I had gotten my idea that it ad happened somewhere besides Chaeronea. However, doing a Google search, a number of books on Alexander from the 19th century all say it happened up north*** fighting the Triballi. Apparently this view was fairly common, and though I am too lazy to research it, someone must have started it or had a super secret source we don't know about... :lol:

*** I was going to post the books and authors and dates but it would be quicker if you just googled "alexander+ "saved his father's life"+ triballi" in the book part of the search engine. There are probably more but it gives you the idea.
I tried your search along with various other combinations and also came across many references on websites but no actual citations. Thought I had hit pay dirt when one link led me to page 24 of John Maxwell O'Brien's Alexander the Great: The Invisible Enemy which says "Around this time Alexander is said to have courageously saved Philip's life in battle" and there is an endnote reference. Off I scurried to the book only to find that the note reads: "C.8.1.24, when this occurred (perhaps at Chaeronea?) is problematical." Now Curtius 8.1.24 is included in the quotation that I gave in my earlier response! Think if there is any other historical citation then O'Brien would have given it (he's the reference king, IMO) so I don't quite know what to make of this. Perhaps modern writers have decided it's unlikely that the event took place at Chaeronea and have tied it in with Philip’s severe leg wound during the Triballian battle? :?

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Post by Paralus »

Indeed many of the "old books" do claim this. One - The History of Ancient Greece: Its Colonies and Conquests, from the Earliest times to... (and on...) - relates an entire narrative of this "battle with the Triballians". Alexander here, after his father is pierced by a spear in the leg and his horse killed, defends his father with his shield and spear. The reference given for this is Plutarch's On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander. No citation given. Having scanned it all I can find is the following (331 c):
When the thigh of his father Philip had been pierced by a spear in battle with the Triballians, and Philip, although he escaped with his life, was vexed with his lameness, Alexander said, "Be of good cheer, father, and go on your way rejoicing, that at each step you may recall your valour."
Artistic licence perhaps??

Hammond - Philip of Macedon - contends that Philip was wounded, accidentaly, by a sarisa. He cites Didymos' Commentary on Demosthesnes 13.3-7. I do not have it and cannot comment.
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Post by marcus »

the_accursed wrote:Alexander, on the other hand, did not have to command, however "nominally", at Chaeronea. Had Philip let Parmenion, rather than a supervised Alexander, command the left wing, then I don't believe for one moment that you - or, for that matter, a single soldier in the Macedonian army - would have questioned that decision.
No, no-one would have questioned the decision to put Parmenion in charge - except perhaps Alexander, who probably would have been expecting such a command. But, as I say below, it's more a question of what the army would have thought of Alexander later on, had he not held a prominent position at Chaironea.
the_accursed wrote: What Philip did weakened the army. And this could have made a difference in this "hotly contested" battle. The generals had to supervise Alexander, rather than command themselves, and Alexander - who was both inexperienced and unpredictable - could have made a mistake that they could not have corrected.
No, I don't think it 'weakened' the army at all. Even if the generals were 'supervising' Alexander, that wouldn't impair anyone's ability to control their part of the battle - after all, if Alexander's in charge, they aren't; and if they're in charge, then they're not supervising Alexander. And Alexander was by no means inexperienced - he had campaigned successfully (at least once, that we know of) two years previously, on his own; and he had had a fair amount of training at his father's side. The amount of military training he would have received from the age of about 7 would have made it perfectly clear what he was and wasn't capable of, even without previous field experience.

But, ultimately, it still goes back to the "way things were done" - no, Philip didn't have to put Alexander in charge of the left wing; but had he not done so, then Alexander would not have "gained his spurs". If the sources and most commentaries are to be believed, the army had such a strong say in who the next king would be, that had Alexander not been given the chance to prove himself to the army, they might well not have ratified his accession. Therefore I cannot see how Philip could have avoided giving his nominated heir a chance to prove himself.

Had Alexander "missed" the battle, what would all those beefy, macho and ever-so masculine phalangites have thought of him? I can think of a few choice words ... but once he was king they wouldn't have followed him to the toilet, let alone across the Hellespont and as far as India!

This is irrespective of whether Alexander actually commanded the left wing, or was nominally in charge of it.

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Post by Paralus »

marcus wrote:[Had Alexander "missed" the battle, what would all those beefy, macho and ever-so masculine phalangites have thought of him? I can think of a few choice words ... but once he was king they wouldn't have followed him to the toilet, let alone across the Hellespont and as far as India!

This is irrespective of whether Alexander actually commanded the left wing, or was nominally in charge of it.
Bingo.

This whole line of weakeneing an army because an unproven teenager was posted on the left wing is illusory. One might as well claim that Philip was in mortal danger due to the fact that he - if he led the right on foot - was surrounded by a corps of unproven teenage nobility as his guard.
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Post by athenas owl »

amyntoros wrote:
athenas owl wrote: . . . As for Renault, though, I thought that that was where I had gotten my idea that it ad happened somewhere besides Chaeronea. However, doing a Google search, a number of books on Alexander from the 19th century all say it happened up north*** fighting the Triballi. Apparently this view was fairly common, and though I am too lazy to research it, someone must have started it or had a super secret source we don't know about... :lol:

*** I was going to post the books and authors and dates but it would be quicker if you just googled "alexander+ "saved his father's life"+ triballi" in the book part of the search engine. There are probably more but it gives you the idea.
I tried your search along with various other combinations and also came across many references on websites but no actual citations. Thought I had hit pay dirt when one link led me to page 24 of John Maxwell O'Brien's Alexander the Great: The Invisible Enemy which says "Around this time Alexander is said to have courageously saved Philip's life in battle" and there is an endnote reference. Off I scurried to the book only to find that the note reads: "C.8.1.24, when this occurred (perhaps at Chaeronea?) is problematical." Now Curtius 8.1.24 is included in the quotation that I gave in my earlier response! Think if there is any other historical citation then O'Brien would have given it (he's the reference king, IMO) so I don't quite know what to make of this. Perhaps modern writers have decided it's unlikely that the event took place at Chaeronea and have tied it in with Philip’s severe leg wound during the Triballian battle? :?

Best regards,
I may have messed up that word useage with too many quotation marks...

Here's a few c&p for you...the earliest I could find was from 1806. So the idea must have gone back at leasr a bit earlier.


Alexander: A History of the Origin and Growth of the Art of War from the ... - Page 651
by Theodore Ayrault Dodge, Theodore Dodge - History - 2004 - 720 pages
Alexander was active, and able to endure heat and cold, ... Curtius says that he
saved his father's life in a mutiny among the Triballi, when a mere lad, ...
The Cottage Cyclopedia of History and Biography: A Copious Dictionary of ... - Page 33
by Edward M. Pierce - History - 1867 - 1004 pages
Soon after this he saved his father's life in an expedition against the Triballi.
Philip was assassinated, BC 836, when preparing to make war upon Persia, ...
History of Alexander the Great: His Personality and Deeds - Page 34
by Marshall Monroe Kirkman - 1913 - 361 pages
High of spirit as a youth Alexander refused to enter the Olympic games, ...
in an uprising of the Triballi, a savage Thracian tribe, by his gallantry and ...
A Popular Cyclopedia of History: Ancient and Modern, Forming a Copious ... - Page 40
by Francis Alexander Durivage - History - 1835 - 708 pages
Soon after this he saved his father's life in an expedition against the Triballi.
Philip was assassinated, В. С. 330, when preparing to make war upon Persia ...
How to Get Strong and how to Stay So - Page 256
by William Blaikie - 1899 - 510 pages
Quintus Curtius says that he saved his father's life in a mutiny among the
Triballi, when a mere lad, by his sole personal gallantry. ...
The Romance of Alexander and Roxana: Being One of the Alexandrian Romances ... - Page 394
by Marshall Monroe Kirkman, August Petrtyl, Cropley Phillips Company, R.R. Donnelley and Sons Company - 1909 - 398 pages
... tells how he saved his father's life in a mutiny among the Triballi, when a lad,
... While of exalted dignity as a King, Alexander was intimate with his ...
General Biography: Or, Lives, Critical and Historical, of the Most Eminent ... - Page 121
by John Aikin, William Enfield, Nicholson, Thomas Morgan, William Johnston - Biography - 1813
Philip sent complaints of this infraction of the peace to Athens ; but the ...
lost his life had he not been rescued by his son Alexander, then a youth. ...
Heres' one from 1806 !

The history of the life and reign of Philip, king of Macedon. [Another] - Page 256
by Thomas Leland, Philip - 1806
The Triballi oppose Philip's return. — His imminent danger. — /* rescued by
Alexander. — The prince's observation on /u'* father's wound. ...
I suppose that other wordings might find other books that say pretty much the same thing, but the idea goes back at least to 1806. So Renault isn't the instigator at least.
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Post by marcus »

athenas owl wrote:I suppose that other wordings might find other books that say pretty much the same thing, but the idea goes back at least to 1806. So Renault isn't the instigator at least.
I wonder whether, (as per O'Brien's comment as posted by Amyntoros), if it's difficult to believe that this event (if it ever happened at all) occurred at Chaeronea, then people must have worked out when it might otherwise have occurred.

The only thing is, it seems strange that 'scholars' as early as 1806 were looking at the sources so critically.

However, as yet I haven't found any references to the event happening during the fight against the Triballi ...

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Post by smittysmitty »

marcus wrote:
I wonder whether, (as per O'Brien's comment as posted by Amyntoros), if it's difficult to believe that this event (if it ever happened at all) occurred at Chaeronea, then people must have worked out when it might otherwise have occurred.
Curtius is the only source that mentions Alexander saving Philip's life. However, the placement of this event at Chaironea is either the result of poor translation of Curtius or simply, Curtius has it all wrong. Demosthene's speaking on 'the Crown' tells us that Philip had received numerous injuries - his eye, collarbone, arm and leg took place long before the events of Chaironea.

Curtius' prelude to the 'saving' mentions a quarrel breaking out between the Greek mercenaries and Macedonians [8.1.24]. It is more than likely the event he speaks of here take place during Philip's northern escapades (Triballi) when it is known he hired such mercenaries.

As to whether Alexander saved his father's life - well it would seem rather peculiar that it is only to be found in Curtius? Make of it what you will - but seems a bit odd that someone who was considered a 'fourth century Achilles' was not capable! :wink:

An interesting paper by Alice Swift Riginos in'The Journal of Hellenic Studies' Vol. 114 (1994) presents an interesting discussion on the various wounds Philip received and the numerous stories and embellishments that later writers attached.

cheers!
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Marcus:
No, no-one would have questioned the decision to put Parmenion in charge - except perhaps Alexander, who probably would have been expecting such a command. But, as I say below, it's more a question of what the army would have thought of Alexander later on, had he not held a prominent position at Chaironea.
You're arguing from the point of view of someone who knows how things turned out. You know that the Macedonians won the battle, that Philip died only a couple of years later, that Alexander then became king, and that he conquered Persia. But Philip didn't know these things. What you're saying is: it was a fortunate decision for Alexander. What I'm saying is, this doesn’t mean it was also a wise one. Not, in my opinion, based on what Philip himself could have known in 338 B.C.
No, I don't think it 'weakened' the army at all. Even if the generals were 'supervising' Alexander, that wouldn't impair anyone's ability to control their part of the battle - after all, if Alexander's in charge, they aren't; and if they're in charge, then they're not supervising Alexander.


If you don't put the most capable person in every position, you weaken the army. Alexander was not, by a long shot, the most qualified person for that position. He was inexperienced and unpredictable, and could have made mistakes that the generals would have been unable to correct. And of course it burdened them. If Alexander was in charge (as I belive he was) and they weren't, they still had to supervise him. Had Parmenion been in command of the left wing, rather than Alexander, then this supervision would not have been necessary.
And Alexander was by no means inexperienced - he had campaigned successfully (at least once, that we know of) two years previously, on his own; and he had had a fair amount of training at his father's side. The amount of military training he would have received from the age of about 7 would have made it perfectly clear what he was and wasn't capable of, even without previous field experience.
He was ridiculously inexperienced compared to the generals that had to supervise him. One year's worth of real military experience is not suddenly a lot merely because the person we're talking about is Alexander. And regarding Alexander's military training, I'd say there's a rather great difference between fighting fake battles against other teenagers – if Alexander did even that – and commanding the left wing in a battle that Philip had reason to believe would be his most difficult one so far.
But, ultimately, it still goes back to the "way things were done" - no, Philip didn't have to put Alexander in charge of the left wing; but had he not done so, then Alexander would not have "gained his spurs". If the sources and most commentaries are to be believed, the army had such a strong say in who the next king would be, that had Alexander not been given the chance to prove himself to the army, they might well not have ratified his accession. Therefore I cannot see how Philip could have avoided giving his nominated heir a chance to prove himself.
I'm not arguing that Philip should have avoided it. I just think that he should have let Alexander gain more general military experience before he allowed him to command. He could have just let Alexander fight in the battle as a regular soldier, without command responsibility. Alexander would have had to "gain his spurs" as commander eventually. But he did not have to do it at the age of 18, in a battle that would determine the future of the Macedonian empire. By allowing Alexander to do so, Philip took a great and in my opinion unnecessary risk.

And again: I'm arguing from the point of view of what Philip could have known in 338 B.C.
Had Alexander "missed" the battle, what would all those beefy, macho and ever-so masculine phalangites have thought of him? I can think of a few choice words ... but once he was king they wouldn't have followed him to the toilet, let alone across the Hellespont and as far as India!

This is irrespective of whether Alexander actually commanded the left wing, or was nominally in charge of it.
But...what if the battle had been lost? And what if Alexander had caused the defeat? What would the surviving soldiers have thought of him then? And would it still have been a wise decision to let Alexander command?
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Post by amyntoros »

the_accursed wrote:Marcus:
No, no-one would have questioned the decision to put Parmenion in charge - except perhaps Alexander, who probably would have been expecting such a command. But, as I say below, it's more a question of what the army would have thought of Alexander later on, had he not held a prominent position at Chaironea.
You're arguing from the point of view of someone who knows how things turned out. You know that the Macedonians won the battle, that Philip died only a couple of years later, that Alexander then became king, and that he conquered Persia. But Philip didn't know these things. What you're saying is: it was a fortunate decision for Alexander. What I'm saying is, this doesn't mean it was also a wise one. Not, in my opinion, based on what Philip himself could have known in 338 B.C.
And …
He was ridiculously inexperienced compared to the generals that had to supervise him. One year's worth of real military experience is not suddenly a lot merely because the person we're talking about is Alexander. And regarding Alexander's military training, I'd say there's a rather great difference between fighting fake battles against other teenagers – if Alexander did even that – and commanding the left wing in a battle that Philip had reason to believe would be his most difficult one so far.
And
I'm not arguing that Philip should have avoided it. I just think that he should have let Alexander gain more general military experience before he allowed him to command. He could have just let Alexander fight in the battle as a regular soldier, without command responsibility. Alexander would have had to "gain his spurs" as commander eventually. But he did not have to do it at the age of 18, in a battle that would determine the future of the Macedonian empire. By allowing Alexander to do so, Philip took a great and in my opinion unnecessary risk.

And again: I'm arguing from the point of view of what Philip could have known in 338 B.C.


Here's the fundamental problem I have with your argument (see the lines I have bold-faced above). You don't know what Philip could have known. I don't know what Philip could have known. No one knows what Philip could have known. Nor do we know the full extent of Alexander's military training, although I'd be suprised if it was fake battles with other teenagers. (Do you know of evidence of such training?) Plus we only have fleeting, episodic references to Alexander's actual military experience prior to Chaeronea. However, we DO know that Philip thought Alexander worthy of being regent at the age of 16. And we know that Philip thought him ready for (at least) a nominal command at Chaeronea, as long as there were experienced generals for support. These were Philip's decisions, based on what Philip knew about his son. We cannot share in that knowledge because the histories of Philip's life (which must have included Alexander's youth) are lost. And the little evidence which has come down to us on Alexander's youth is mostly concerned with his character rather than his military training and experience. So by the time of Chaeronea all we know for sure is that Philip thought Alexander capable of leading a charge on the left. So how can you say Philip was wrong when he knew what we do not? I don't quite see how you can base an argument on what Philip could have known when we have no idea what that might have been.

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Here's the fundamental problem I have with your argument (see the lines I have bold-faced above). You don't know what Philip could have known. I don't know what Philip could have known. No one knows what Philip could have known. Nor do we know the full extent of Alexander's military training, although I'd be suprised if it was fake battles with other teenagers. (Do you know of evidence of such training?) Plus we only have fleeting, episodic references to Alexander's actual military experience prior to Chaeronea. However, we DO know that Philip thought Alexander worthy of being regent at the age of 16. And we know that Philip thought him ready for (at least) a nominal command at Chaeronea, as long as there were experienced generals for support. These were Philip's decisions, based on what Philip knew about his son. We cannot share in that knowledge because the histories of Philip's life (which must have included Alexander's youth) are lost. And the little evidence which has come down to us on Alexander's youth is mostly concerned with his character rather than his military training and experience. So by the time of Chaeronea all we know for sure is that Philip thought Alexander capable of leading a charge on the left. So how can you say Philip was wrong when he knew what we do not? I don't quite see how you can base an argument on what Philip could have known when we have no idea what that might have been.

Best regards,
I think it's reasonable to assume that Alexander was not the most qualified person in Philip's army to command the left wing, and that Philip knew it. Or do you think that Parmenion would also have been surrounded with the most seasoned generals, to make sure he would not mess everything up? If you accept the argument that Alexander wasn't the most qualified for the position, then my conclusions follow.
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the_accursed wrote:If you accept the argument that Alexander wasn't the most qualified for the position, then my conclusions follow.
No they do not; to go through it all again, though, will acheive little.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Paralus wrote:
the_accursed wrote:If you accept the argument that Alexander wasn't the most qualified for the position, then my conclusions follow.
No they do not; to go through it all again, though, will acheive little.
Sure they do. It's just that the king who made the decision was Philip, a person you happen to admire, and so the decision must be defended, however flawed it may have been.
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Post by Paralus »

There is no "excused".
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Post by the_accursed »

Paralus wrote:There is no "excused".
Thus the edit, one I will assume you didn't see.
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Post by Paralus »

There is, then, no "defended"; only explained.

You thought "excused" too strong?
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