A Candle for Alexander

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Taphoi
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Re: A Candle for Alexander

Post by Taphoi »

Paralus wrote:In the instance under discussion the Chaldeans simply noted the death of the king: this was the king of Babylon (Alexander) and needed little elaboration. They were finicky buggers and I doubt they'd have the date incorrect.
But I agree with you that they were not mistaken. I have only said that they (very correctly) recorded the date of the public announcement of Alexander's death.
Paralus wrote:The actual cult to “Serapis” – as a discrete cult with its own temples and later to flourish under Rome – began later under Ptolemy Soter.
In fact it is quite likely that Ptolemy merely popularised the existing cult of Osiris-Apis among his Greek immigrants. As I have shown, Serapis was in no meaningful sense a new god under Ptolemy.
Paralus wrote:I’m not at all certain that we could describe Marduk as a “bull-god”.
Marduk... may appear as a winged bull centaur (who must not be confounded with the winged bull temple and palace guardians), or in colossal human form, with multiple eyes and ears. Essentially, in all aspects, Marduk is a god of healing, regeneration, light, shimmering in rainbow colors, in whose glory His form is scarcely visible.
You can find the above at this website (with which I have no connection):

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/l ... rduk1.html
Paralus wrote:I don’t think that Eumenes would have confused Marduk and the Apis bull.
I would not suggest that Eumenes was confused. Rather he was perhaps indulging in the common Greek habit of syncretism: assuming that gods with similar attributes in different places were the same deity. Obviously, you will be familiar with the many other instances of syncretism in the Alexander historians: Dionysus and Heracles being identified with local Indian deities, Melkart identified as Heracles at Tyre...

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Paralus
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Of "healing" and "high magickal training".

Post by Paralus »

Taphoi wrote:
Paralus wrote:I’m not at all certain that we could describe Marduk as a “bull-god”.
Marduk... may appear as a winged bull centaur (who must not be confounded with the winged bull temple and palace guardians), or in colossal human form, with multiple eyes and ears. Essentially, in all aspects, Marduk is a god of healing, regeneration, light, shimmering in rainbow colors, in whose glory His form is scarcely visible.
You can find the above at this website (with which I have no connection):

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/l ... rduk1.html
A rather interesting site I must say. The capitalised "His" intrigues. Written by one "Lishtar" who explains her methods:
For at least five years now I have read and worked deeply with Mesopotamian mythology and religion. The study, nevertheless, was focused from the start, because at that point I had already some training in High Magic, having been initiated and ordained priestess of Inanna and later consecrated priestess hierophant by two world class Celtic scholars and mystics, Caitlin and John Matthews. I think the world, the stars and the universe of them, and could not have asked the gods for more brilliant companions along the path […]

Very intuitively first, although always with a strong basis of mythology, comparative religion, history, Junguian Psychology and archaeology, I started weaving the threads of High Magical Arts and Alchemy to retrieve the religious legacy of Ancient Mesopotamia here and now. The technique I have always used from the start in my magickal training is described by Junguian analyst Marie-Louise von Franz as imaginatio vera, or true imagination. Medieval alchemists used it, and it consists in living a myth by placing oneself on the shoes of the most difficult character, in an attempt to heal the character and the myth itself. I came to it intuitively as well, via the Tarot. Very simply, I said to myself that I was going to "meet the High Beings of my Tarot pack and see what They had to teach me". At that time I knew almost nothing of meditation, visualisation, creative imagination etc., so all these age-old techniques came to me very naturally […]

In the last five years I have used this technique mostly to try and understand the great myths of Ancient Mesopotamia. How do I work? Basically, by attempting to heal the most difficut characters of a myth or by attempting to solve the riddle contained in the sacred narrative one heals oneself too. It is both a carefully researched and intuitive process, because it starts with learning the text almost by heart, placing it in its historical context […]

Then it is just wait for the signs that do manifest in real life. The healing, as I like to call it, occurs out of the blue after some time, because it comes from deep insight. Many times it also comes with tears. But wisdom is the smile beyond the tears, and I prefer to know always, no matter how hard truth can be most of the times. I never know who long it will take me to work with a myth.
I have no doubt that you would not be connected with such a website: I believe your scholarship to be substantially more rigorous than the above indicates of the site.

“Lishtar” is big on “healing” and so it no surprise to me that she sees Marduk as “all healing” (she seems to seek “healing” in most anything). Again, as to “bull god”, the only representations (from Mesopotamia) that I have seen are human in form.

I take the point of syncretism but I don’t think the Greeks (or Macedonians) necessarily equated Marduk with Apis. They had not been in Egypt for some eight years or more and had resided in Babylon for the last months of Alexander’s life. The Esigala and Marduk’s temple – the most important in Babylon – will have surely been familiar to them.

Yes, I agree, “Serapis” existed before Alexander’s death but it was Egyptian. I doubt strongly any currency outside of Egypt until Soter decided that it would make a fine focus for native and Greek worship.
Taphoi wrote:
Paralus wrote:In the instance under discussion the Chaldeans simply noted the death of the king: this was the king of Babylon (Alexander) and needed little elaboration. They were finicky buggers and I doubt they'd have the date incorrect.
But I agree with you that they were not mistaken. I have only said that they (very correctly) recorded the date of the public announcement of Alexander's death.
The point was more to do with the Astronomical Diaries themselves. When you mention them it is always qualified (“grandly named notes” or “imprecise”). The information I posted was more to do with the fact they do provide accurate historical information and are quite reliable.

As well, as Agesilaos noted, it is highly likely that Chaldeans were in attendance upon the king. He took such religious matters seriously – and remember he was warned by same prior to entry into Babylon if we can believe the tradition – and is likely to have had the Chaldeans consulted.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Taphoi
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Re: Of "healing" and "high magickal training".

Post by Taphoi »

Paralus wrote:“Lishtar” is big on “healing” and so it no surprise to me that she sees Marduk as “all healing” (she seems to seek “healing” in most anything). Again, as to “bull god”, the only representations (from Mesopotamia) that I have seen are human in form.
I think that Lishtar's reference to Marduk is only part bull (which works in more than one sense :) )

However, if you would like a more paralytic(?) reference to Marduk as a healing god, try this:
Ulrich Wilcken, Alexander the Great, p. 238 wrote:The friends of Alexander were in despair. Human art could do no more; only the gods could help. They did not turn to a Greek god, but to the principal god of Babylon, Marduk-Bel, who had been from time immemorial venerated as a god of healing.
Paralus wrote:As well, as Agesilaos noted, it is highly likely that Chaldeans were in attendance upon the king.
There is a good reason why the Chaldeans probably were not in attendance whilst Alexander was dying. It seems to have been Macedonian court practice for the Friends and Bodyguards to close off the king's lodgings when he was ill:
Curtius 9.6.4 wrote:It was customary for the leading Friends and the Bodyguards to stand watch in front of the royal lodgings whenever the king was in poor health.
The implication is that most other people were kept away: else there would be little point in the procedure.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: Of "healing" and "high magickal training".

Post by Paralus »

Taphoi wrote:
Paralus wrote:“Lishtar” is big on “healing” and so it no surprise to me that she sees Marduk as “all healing” (she seems to seek “healing” in most anything). Again, as to “bull god”, the only representations (from Mesopotamia) that I have seen are human in form.
I think that Lishtar's reference to Marduk is only part bull (which works in more than one sense :) )
Indeed!

I'd like to know what Lishtar is on: certainly isn't cut with any water...
Taphoi wrote:
Paralus wrote:As well, as Agesilaos noted, it is highly likely that Chaldeans were in attendance upon the king.
There is a good reason why the Chaldeans probably were not in attendance whilst Alexander was dying. It seems to have been Macedonian court practice for the Friends and Bodyguards to close off the king's lodgings when he was ill:
Curtius 9.6.4 wrote:It was customary for the leading Friends and the Bodyguards to stand watch in front of the royal lodgings whenever the king was in poor health.
The implication is that most other people were kept away: else there would be little point in the procedure.
Unfortunately we do not have enough evidence to say what Maccedonian court practice was in this regard, though one can readily assume that the somatophylakes and paides basilikoi will have sealed off an ill king's quarters. In any case, Alexander's court in Babylon was far from Argead - not to say Macedonian - normal practice in many regards as the rank and file made plain.

It is a leap of logic from there to assume that physicians and religious people (often one and the same) were denied access to an ill king. One assumes the "general run" of individuals were refused access.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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amyntoros
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Re: Of "healing" and "high magickal training".

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:
Paralus wrote:As well, as Agesilaos noted, it is highly likely that Chaldeans were in attendance upon the king.
There is a good reason why the Chaldeans probably were not in attendance whilst Alexander was dying. It seems to have been Macedonian court practice for the Friends and Bodyguards to close off the king's lodgings when he was ill:
Curtius 9.6.4 wrote:It was customary for the leading Friends and the Bodyguards to stand watch in front of the royal lodgings whenever the king was in poor health.
The implication is that most other people were kept away: else there would be little point in the procedure.
But at other times it was customary for the Royal Pages to watch in front of Alexander's lodgings - i.e., someone was always there to "protect" Alexander and to keep a watchful eye on who went in and out, and I think it only natural that his leading Friends and Bodyguards would have taken over this duty during a severe illness. I sincerely doubt they would have wanted Alexander's daily condition to be communicated to them from a distance. Of course, a healthy Alexander would have controlled who went in and out of his chambers, and I imagine that it was the same during his last illness, at least as long as he was able to communicate. I doubt that he would have surrendered control of his person and his visitors until the very end. And given what we know about Alexander and his beliefs it seems likely (to me, anyway) that some of the Chaldeans would have been there at Alexander's request after he first took sick. Now, whether or not the Friends might have banished the Chaldeans during Alexander's very last days is another matter entirely. I suppose it depends on exactly how much they tried to communicate with Alexander once he lost his voice - and on how sure the Friends were that Alexander was not going to recover. :)

Best regards,

Amyntoros
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Alexias
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Re: A Candle for Alexander

Post by Alexias »

A quick skim through this post would seem to indicate that we should commemorate Alexander's death tomorrow 11 June (or 5 or 6 June, if you go with Taphoi (where did all these people go?)). Anyway, he's dead, and I recalled reading something in Plutarch about Alexander being depressed before he died.
On hearing of this (the man wearing the king's robes and sitting on the throne), Alexander put the man out of the way, as the seers directed; but he began to be low-spirited, and was distrustful now of the favour of Heaven and suspicious of his friends. He was particularly afraid of Antipater and of his sons..... Alexander, then, since he had now become sensitive to indications of the divine will and perturbed and apprehensive in his mind, converted every unusual and strange occurrence, were it never so insignificant, into a prodigy and portent; and sacrificers, purifiers, and diviners filled his palace. So, you see, while it is a dire thing to be incredulous towards indications of the divine will and to have contempt for them, superstition is likewise a dire thing, which, after the manner of water ever seeking the lower levels, filled with folly the Alexander who was now become a prey to his fears. Notwithstanding, in consequence of oracular responses regarding Hephaestion which were brought him, he laid aside his grief and betook himself once more to sacrifices and drinking-bouts. He gave a splendid entertainment to Nearchus, and then, although he had taken his customary bath before going to bed, at the request of Medius he went to hold high revel with him; and here, after drinking all the next day, he began to have a fever.


So, he had a bath and then went out drinking again. Did he catch a chill and couldn't shake it off because of too much alcohol and an immune system lowered by depression? Had he simply burnt himself out?
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Re: A Candle for Alexander

Post by ian991 »

The Greek historian Arrian (writing of and serving the Roman Empire) tells us that Alexander set out to conquer Persia as an act of revenge for past wrongs. Alexander addresses this in his letter to Darius stating.
But was it really all about revenge or was there something more to it... is it possible that Alexander just needed money?

http://www.ancient-origins.net/history- ... ire-009965
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Re: A Candle for Alexander

Post by Alexias »

He did need money, but that was not his primary motive. Money is different from wealth. He wanted wealth and power and glory and revenge, and basically just to be top dog.
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