The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

I think so.....I was simply supplying factual information on the illustration, which is in fact a piece of equipment worn by a man rather than an animal.

Similar crescent shapes and discs called 'phalera' were often worn as military decorations by men, and also on horse harness by Roman and Celtic cavalry, and animals also bore decorations in rituals and sacrifices as we know. I don't recall off-hand seeing a depiction of a crescent phalera on a bull in a Greek or Macedonian context though, and a quick Google search doesn't reveal any either, though there is no inherent reason I am aware of that such might not have existed.

Not a problem for me either way, since I don't see 'garlands' or 'crescents'........
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Zebedee wrote: ...Where you're drawing the left side of the garland (as we view it) is actually fairly clearly a continuation down from the bull's neck and makes its right shoulder and chest. That's why your garland there looks like its going through the bull's neck. :oops:

edit: just to say again, if there is a garland there it needs to resemble something like I painted on a few pages back and cross that nearside shoulder and go around. It's easy enough to draw it in along 'lines', but whether it's there or not... Lefantzis says its a crescent shape on the chest and not a garland so one would suspect the UV results are not encouraging for seeing a garland...
On the left side it is not a continuation of the bull's shoulder, because the outline is irregular rather than a smooth curve. But you might mean the bull's left side: the right side as we look at it. There is a smooth line for the bull's shoulder there. But the artist will have drafted the complete bull's outline, before he painted the irregular garland in over it. So in its current condition with so much of the paint flaked away, we should expect that the drafting lines of the bull's outline might show through in the area of the garland.

Corso has recently written that the bull is wearing a garland. So the archaeological team would appear to have changed their minds on this.

To summarise the results of this discussion so far:

1) Large gold or bronze crescents hung on the fronts of either centaurs or bulls are unprecedented in Classical or Hellenistic Greece and therefore most unlikely.
2) Diagonal shoulder straps on Hellenistic, Greek or Roman centaurs are unprecedented except as harnesses when they are depicted drawing carriages.

Conclusions: these are not centaurs but celebrants dancing at a bull sacrifice and the bull is wearing a garland around its neck, so it is not a manifestation of a god, but a sacrificial animal.

On Xenophon's remark about bull sacrifice being a Roman period practice at the Sanctuary of the Great Gods on Samothrace, the written mentions are apparently Roman, but that does not mean that it did not also take place in earlier periods. Several times now the frieze showing bulls garlanded for sacrifice from the Arsinoe Rotunda in the Sanctuary of the Great Gods (early 3rd century BC) has been shown in posts on this threat, but here it is again for the record.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

I meant what I wrote Andrew. Your garland doesn't work as a shape. Whether there's a garland there or not outside of that... Corso's interpretation also includes Philip as a bull so I wouldn't place *too* much reliance on what he writes or that's going to make a rather curious little interlude for your Olympias novella. What was hoped with viewing through the UV light was to try and see more clearly what was going on. But that has led to interpretations which you don't seem to favour. I'd be sceptical of trying to interpret too much through missing pieces in places which would otherwise make an interpretation nonsensical.

You're absolutely correct to repeat what has been said many times that some interpretations would imply harness for a chariot which does not seem to be present. However, that is what Lefantzis has there and so reasonable interpretations required. A much simpler interpretation would be that the 'shapes' are in fact just differences in shading and texture, but where's the fun in that?

Just a little thing, but I wasn't joking about a 'strap' being present on centaurs depending on what was being portrayed.

One of the female centaurs from Oplontis. The male pair are considered to be identically styled to those found at Pergamon's Asclepion (ie 4th century BC and onwards). 1st Century AD obviously for these little things from near Pompeii. No chariot found in association with them.

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One of the male pair.

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And if we're going to play ''let's disagree with Lefantzis", my main quibble is the 'strap' shape still looking like the figure's right arm crossing their torso. But so it goes :)
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

amyntoros wrote: IF CENTAURS ...
Definitely difficult to find other Greek images of centaurs to compare. Searching with the keywords "ancient Greece and centaurs" one finds mostly images of Chiron or battles against the centaurs. However, if one simply Googles "Dionysos Centaurs" then Google Images positively vomits images of Dionysos with centaurs, many of them on sarcophagi and just about all of them Roman. Interesting.
It's an interesting point on Dionysian/Bacchic depictions. The most obvious Greek portrayals of centaurs would be the Lapiths fighting the Centaurs, as we find in what is believed to be the grave of one leading Macedonian of the late 4th century BC with all the associated symbolism that would seem to bring. Against that one has the depictions which seem to be centred on cult sites - whether in the Hieron of Samothrace, or the Asclepion at Pergamon, or even on the great altar there where centaurs pull Dionysos' chariot etc. Centaurs, grapes, wine, Nikes, and switching to the art on vases one gets the tripods and sacrificial bulls. Orphism gets thrown about a fair amount but it really wasn't that widespread as early as this, so (and assumptions acknowledged) would this then place us into a much clearer cult site than a 'grave' as such?

The Roman portrayals tend towards Ariadne and Dionysos, whereas the Greek seem more focused on other elements of the myth, and one has to wonder just how much one can pull forwards. The little centaurs from Pompeii are fantastic, but the comparisons are somewhat lacking for the male away from their torses and certainly absent for the females. But there they are as Roman garden gnomes. Well, at one point part of a fountain at least.

How often was Dionysos represented in bull form? With aspects of a bull, sure. But in bull form itself? It would seem rare enough.

Always more questions with this site.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Zebedee wrote:
How often was Dionysos represented in bull form? With aspects of a bull, sure. But in bull form itself? It would seem rare enough.

Always more questions with this site.
Problem is, with sculpture of bulls we have no way of knowing who the bull is meant to represent! Only clue I have that Dionysos was indeed represented in bull form is from Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris:
Plutarch. On Isis and Osiris XXXV.
That indeed he is the same with Bacchus, who is more fitted to know than yourself, Clea, you who have headed the Bacchanals at Delphi, and have been initiated into the rites of Osiris, ever since your childhood? But if for the sake of other people we must produce testimony, let us put on one side the things not to be revealed; but the ceremonies the priests perform in public when they are conveying the body on a raft, at the burial of the Apis, differ in nothing from the Bacchanalea; for they tie fawn-skins about them, and carry thyrsi, and make shoutings and motions like those possessed with the divine frenzy in honor of Bacchus; for which cause many of the Greeks represent Dionysos in the form of a Bull in his images; and the women of the Eleians when praying, exhort the “god with the bull’s foot,” to come to them. The Argives too have a Bacchus by title the “Bull-born;” and they call him up out of water by the sound of trumpets, casting into the deep pool as offerings to the “Pylaochus.” The trumpets they conceal within the thyrsi as Socrates has described it in his treatise on Rituals. The Titanic also and Nyctelean rites are of the same kind with the fabled tearing to pieces of the body of Osiris, his returnings to life, and his new births; and, similarly, the stories about his burials. For the Egyptians, as already stated, show Tombs of Osiris in many places; and the Delphians believe that the relics of Bacchus are deposited with themselves by the side of the Oracle and their “Holy Ones” offer a secret sacrifice in the Temple of Apollo at what time the Bacchantes waken up “Him of the winnowing fan.” And that the Greeks hold Bacchus for lord and leader not only of the wine but of the whole element of Moisture, Pindar is sufficient testimony where he says, “May Bacchus that rejoiceth greatly in trees and pastures, augment the pure light of Autumn,” for which reason it is forbidden to those that worship Osiris to destroy any cultivated tree, or to stop up any spring of water.

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Amyntoros

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

I am still undecided if we see centaurs or dancers (or both) and I don't think this will change until at least we see the UV filter images. I would certainly, however, not take into account the rarity of a depiction as an argument to exclude possible interpretations on what the frieze may show. There are several reasons:

1) Kastas is a unique monument for the region of Macedonia, possibly hosting numerous original works, that may reflect the character of the high-level artists and architects involved and/or that of the person(s) for which this monument was built.
2) Kastas appears to have been an accessible monument, but not to masses. It did not create a tradition of building similar monuments. The only known one in the region with similarities is the Heroon at Archontiko in Pella, which was never completed. It is barely referenced in historical sources (which is consistent with a not-so-well known monument). It was sealed before the establishment of the Romans in the region, so its tradition was lost, and may have had no influence on Roman artists.
3) I think the hellenistic sculptures of the Memphis Serapeum are a good example of monuments with original creations that do not appear to have parallels or strong influences on later works. The philosophers semi-circle, or monumental statues young Dionysus on peackocks and lions etc. are not well known from other works or at least not in the context they appear in the Serapeum. We do have Dionysus on Panther on mosaics or later roman sarcophagii, but definitely, the hellenistic finds of the Serapeum is what one may expect at sites with original works involving important artists or architects. Too bad most of these finds there are lost/destroyed or are hidden in museum storage rooms.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

gepd wrote:I am still undecided if we see centaurs or dancers (or both) and I don't think this will change until at least we see the UV filter images. I would certainly, however, not take into account the rarity of a depiction as an argument to exclude possible interpretations on what the frieze may show. There are several reasons:

1) Kastas is a unique monument for the region of Macedonia, possibly hosting numerous original works, that may reflect the character of the high-level artists and architects involved and/or that of the person(s) for which this monument was built.
2) Kastas appears to have been an accessible monument, but not to masses. It did not create a tradition of building similar monuments. The only known one in the region with similarities is the Heroon at Archontiko in Pella, which was never completed. It is barely referenced in historical sources (which is consistent with a not-so-well known monument). It was sealed before the establishment of the Romans in the region, so its tradition was lost, and may have had no influence on Roman artists.
3) I think the hellenistic sculptures of the Memphis Serapeum are a good example of monuments with original creations that do not appear to have parallels or strong influences on later works. The philosophers semi-circle, or monumental statues young Dionysus on peackocks and lions etc. are not well known from other works or at least not in the context they appear in the Serapeum. We do have Dionysus on Panther on mosaics or later roman sarcophagii, but definitely, the hellenistic finds of the Serapeum is what one may expect at sites with original works involving important artists or architects. Too bad most of these finds there are lost/destroyed or are hidden in museum storage rooms.
Hi gepd. I agree with you that frequency is not a reason to exclude possibilities. It is indeed possible that the friezes in the tomb depict unprecedented themes or creatures. But it is not likely. It is improbable. Nearly all Hellenistic Greek art has a strong relationship with other examples in the genre and uncommon or unprecedented features by definition occur infrequently. If we were to adopt the methodology of allowing ourselves to see whatever we like in the frieze images, abandoning recourse to precedents and parallels altogether, then it would be quite easy to "see" the Man in the Moon somewhere in each frieze possibly with Puff the magic dragon in his entourage :) Even the archaeologists have not gone that far - they have restricted themselves to thing that are individually vaguely Greek. Unfortunately they have not taken the further logical step that certain combinations of characters or creatures are much more likely than others and characters and creatures tend to appear in certain types of ornament and dress. Hence it is most unlikely that centaurs will escort a bull in Greek art, but normal that figures in dancing poses should be depicted with a sacrificial bull. It is normal for bulls to wear garlands, but possibly unprecedented for one to have a large crescent of gold or bronze dangling on its chest. And it is seemingly unprecedented for centaurs to wear the large crescent ornaments too. I would strongly advise you to favour the normal over the rare or unprecedented in your judgements if you would like to be right most of the time.

I am not sure that I agree with you on the Greek sculptures from the Serapeum at Memphis: have you read Lauer & Picard's book about them from 1955? Quite a lot of it is devoted to (usually successfully) identifying parallels in Hellenistic and Roman art. And this thread began with me drawing a parallel between the sphinxes at the Serapeum and the sphinxes at Amphipolis. And we now know that the heads of the Amphipolis sphinxes are virtually identical to the heads of the Serapeum sphinxes (especially hairstyles). So there are some rather good connections between the Serapeum sculptures and the Amphipolis Tomb itself.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

Taphoi wrote: Hi gepd. I agree with you that frequency is not a reason to exclude possibilities. It is indeed possible that the friezes in the tomb depict unprecedented themes or creatures. But it is not likely. It is improbable. Nearly all Hellenistic Greek art has a strong relationship with other examples in the genre and uncommon or unprecedented features by definition occur infrequently. If we were to adopt the methodology of allowing ourselves to see whatever we like in the frieze images, abandoning recourse to precedents and parallels altogether, then it would be quite easy to "see" the Man in the Moon somewhere in each frieze possibly with Puff the magic dragon in his entourage :) Even the archaeologists have not gone that far - they have restricted themselves to thing that are individually vaguely Greek. Unfortunately they have not taken the further logical step that certain combinations of characters or creatures are much more likely than others and characters and creatures tend to appear in certain types of ornament and dress. Hence it is most unlikely that centaurs will escort a bull in Greek art, but normal that figures in dancing poses should be depicted with a sacrificial bull. It is normal for bulls to wear garlands, but possibly unprecedented for one to have a large crescent of gold or bronze dangling on its chest. And it is seemingly unprecedented for centaurs to wear the large crescent ornaments too. I would strongly advise you to favour the normal over the rare or unprecedented in your judgements if you would like to be right most of the time.

I am not sure that I agree with you on the Greek sculptures from the Serapeum at Memphis: have you read Lauer & Picard's book about them from 1955? Quite a lot of it is devoted to (usually successfully) identifying parallels in Hellenistic and Roman art. And this thread began with me drawing a parallel between the sphinxes at the Serapeum and the sphinxes at Amphipolis. And we now know that the heads of the Amphipolis sphinxes are virtually identical to the heads of the Serapeum sphinxes (especially hairstyles). So there are some rather good connections between the Serapeum sculptures and the Amphipolis Tomb itself.

Best wishes,

Andrew
I agree it is less probable, but most things about this monument are unusual, so I am waiting to see all the data, before deciding on the basis of probabilities. Lefantzis drawing do not separate which parts are representations of what filter photography has shown, and what are his interpolations. I am sure they can see more than what the visible images show, especially if they can also clean up some parts of the frieze. But they need to show these things at some point.

I know about Lauer and Picard's book, but it is in French (don't speak a word) and costs 200 Euros minimum. So its not even worth the effort to try and read it through Google translate :-) I did read however this review (http://www.jstor.org/stable/500375?Sear ... b_contents), which gives an extended summary of the findings in that book and the artistic comparisons done and we did put here whatever picture we could find in the internet for the Serapeum (includes many of Laure/Picard's book):

https://enneaodoi.wordpress.com/memphis/

I am not saying there are zero parallels, but some of those findings are still extremely rare, and even more rare is their combination. Same is for Kastas - combining sphinx sculptures, lions, peribolos, mosaics, caryatids etc. is an unlikely combination, nobody could have predicted on the basis of probabilities.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

amyntoros wrote:
Problem is, with sculpture of bulls we have no way of knowing who the bull is meant to represent! Only clue I have that Dionysos was indeed represented in bull form is from Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris:
True about sculpture. There's bulls with kantharoi balanced between their horns on some coins, but that's the closest I can get to a clearly signalled depiction elsewhere. Hadn't realised that Plutarch was quite so expansive in his description of it happening.

Playing devil's advocate for reverse facing 'dancing girls' going in the opposite direction from bulls with bling, I suppose one could throw in other Roman examples.

eg

Image

(c.40 AD, The house of Marcus Lucretius Fronto, Pompeii, Triumph of Dionysos and Ariadne).

Draw in what one wishes I guess.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
Unfortunately they have not taken the further logical step that certain combinations of characters or creatures are much more likely than others and characters and creatures tend to appear in certain types of ornament and dress.
( and of course identifying attributes.)

A most interesting subject and parallel, Zebedee.

And not a trace of 'garlands' or 'crescents' on either the bulls drawing the car, or the accompanying mule, and not a hint of 'sacrifice'......can we suggest that the Kasta frieze might well be a Dionysan subject also.........?????? :wink: :) :D
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

gepd wrote:I am not saying there are zero parallels, but some of those findings are still extremely rare, and even more rare is their combination. Same is for Kastas - combining sphinx sculptures, lions, peribolos, mosaics, caryatids etc. is an unlikely combination, nobody could have predicted on the basis of probabilities.
Thanks gepd. I am glad that you accept the probabilities argument, but I agree that it would be nice to have more and better photos and it would be interesting to see whether much more can actually be seen in other wavelengths. I am a bit sceptical, because the damage is so severe that any detail is meaningless and it is only by seeing overall correlations that it is possible to discern features.

That bull from Pompeii would appear to be a garlanded bull, rather than a bull with bling. The ribbons and flowers are clearly visible between its horns for example.
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Best wishes,

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Taphoi wrote:
That bull from Pompeii would appear to be a garlanded bull, rather than a bull with bling. The ribbons and flowers are clearly visible between its horns for example.
The bulls (plural) are pulling the 'chariot'. Although I'm sure someone like Umberto Papparlado (director of excavations down there) would appreciate you correcting his opinion if you cared to take it up with him. Definitely agree something going on above the head between the horns. Definitely something going on below the chin. Definitely not a garland.

Just to help guide the eye a little, some Roman wall decoration with Dionysian themes and a bull with a stemma.

Image

Image

(c. 35BC, Bucrania, Villa of Publius Fannius Synistor, Boscoreale nr. Pompeii)
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by gepd »

The 2nd century BC house in Amphipolis that has a wall decoration imitating the marble blocks in the Kastas chambers may have belonged to a priest or an important person associated with the cult activities there. The same house has also a second room, decorated with wall paintings of rectangular or rhombus shaped panels. Above those, one can see simple geometrical shapes such as swirls, circles, all that remind the toys the Titans gave to the young Dionysus (a mirror, a ball, a spinner, a rhomb...).

Image

Similar patterns and colors are seen in the villa of mysteries in Pompeii, where the theme of the wall paintings is likely Dionysiac.

Image
Image

Maybe that is one indirect way to attribute a Dionysiac character to the Kastas monument.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
On Xenophon's remark about bull sacrifice being a Roman period practice at the Sanctuary of the Great Gods on Samothrace, the written mentions are apparently Roman, but that does not mean that it did not also take place in earlier periods. Several times now the frieze showing bulls garlanded for sacrifice from the Arsinoe Rotunda in the Sanctuary of the Great Gods (early 3rd century BC) has been shown in posts on this threat, but here it is again for the record.
It is hardly necessary to point out that the use of bulls heads as a decorative theme on walls is most assuredly NOT evidence that bull sacrifice took place there!! :roll: :roll:

On that basis, using Taphoi's 'logic', the Villa of Publius Fannius Synistor, illustrated by Gepd above, shows the same 'evidence' as a site of bull sacrifice, which is obvious nonsense.......it is clearly purely decorative, and so almost certainly is the 3C BC frieze from the Arsinoe rotunda on Samothrace..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
.
There is no evidence of bull sacrifice on Samothrace before Roman times that I am aware of.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

gepd wrote: Maybe that is one indirect way to attribute a Dionysiac character to the Kastas monument.
Fascinating to see that colour scheme, thanks Gepd. There's a theory with the Roman villa that whoever owned it/commissioned the frescoes was deliberately copying Greek and Hellenistic models.

Agree it's worth keeping in mind that we're discussing just one small part of what is present at the tomb. The winged Nikes carrying amphorae to tripods would also seem to suggest a Dionysian theme. But how does that then tie in with what else is there? Corso mentions a male figure with a staff which may be related theme, but some aspects would seem very distinct.

---

Just a little thought. The Samothrace link is in the portrayal of the caryatids at Amphipolis. It is worth remembering that the discussion over the relief at Samothrace is whether or not it's a depiction of choral dancers or the wedding of Cadmos and Harmonia. Two figures make neither chorus on the Samothracian frieze (7, 8 or 9 dancers I believe is typical if one follows the multiple chorus idea) nor wedding when compared to the hundreds of figures, including musicians, in the frieze at Samothrace. If there are Macedonian links in there, it's not likely to be in a specific cult.

"However, the fact remains that the dance on our frieze [at Samothrace], with the regular and solemn movement of its dancers, seems to have little to do with ecstatic dances. It moreover appears to have little to do with dances forming part of the rituals of initiation into the mysteries of Samothrace. " - Marconi, Choroi, Theōriai and International Ambitions: The Hall of Choral Dancers and Its Frieze, 2010

Marconi instead draws links to other sanctuaries and cult sites where dance and music were part of ritual and celebration, rather than it singling out any specific cult at any specific place. He does however draw attention to the idea that the portrayal may link to goddesses in particular. Would be nice to have a firmer idea of the time frame of the development of the tomb really.

https://www.academia.edu/4946333/2010._ ... Its_Frieze._
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