Alexander's Grave Will Be found

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derek
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Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by derek »

All,

My first love was Richard III; when I was still at school my mother spent endless nights teaching me the truth about Richard, and I first joined the Richard 3rd Society as a teenager back in the 70’s.

I’ve just had my first trip home to England in 4 years. When I was last there, Richard’s remains were thought irretrievably lost, probably thrown into the river. This time around, my brother took me on a pilgrimage to Leicester to stand at his tomb. Quite incredible.

If it can happen to Richard, maybe it can happen to Alexander.

Derek
Alexias
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by Alexias »

Sadly I doubt it. There were known descendants of Richard III's family (living in Canada I think) against whom the DNA of the skeleton could be verified. We don't have anything like that for Alexander. Also, Richard's burial place was known - it was a case of locating where it was in relation to the modern Leicester.
agesilaos
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by agesilaos »

I am not so sure, Alexander must have been removed from Alexandria in the Fourth Century AD were he re-deposited there is a good chance of an inscription. There would be no chance of a DNA confirmation as no close relative survived and we cannot identify any by-blows; I doubt anyone can trace their genealogy back so far due to the lack of records, no public records office or census results have survived from the ancient world afik.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by Alexias »

I am not sure I would want Alexander's mummy to be found - to be dissected and analysed and to find out that he had intestinal parasites and tooth decay etc, and to have endless debates about whether he was a wheezing cripple because of the chest wound and the lesions that would have been a consequence of it, not to mention all the other wounds. One of the interesting things that emerged from the documentaries following Richard's discovery was that even though he had quite a severe curvature of the spine, they found a young man with a very similar curvature and proved that Richard would have been able to ride and fight and wear armour. The only issue would have been his lack of stamina. As far as we know, Alexander had phenomenal stamina, whether it diminished after India is debatable.

My biggest concern though is the lack of respect and dignity shown to the remains of many ancient people. It doesn't seem right that people are not left where they expected to spend eternity but end up on display in glass cases or forgotten in cardboard boxes in museums and laboratories. Not that this applies in Alexander's case as he would have wanted to be cremated like his heroes rather than mummified and displayed in a golden casket. I wonder whose decision it was to mummify him, or if this was a temporary decision until he was returned to Macedon for a proper funeral. Perhaps though Alexander would have enjoyed all the attention.
agesilaos
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by agesilaos »

I do hope you are not intending to be an archaeologist, Alexias, one has to treat the dead as just matter to be investigated and these days Political Correctness does ensure that remains are generally treated with respect (besides fooling with them contaminates the evidence; no more smoking bifters in mummies' fists :shock: it's happened). Of greater concern at the moment is that if the Tomb is found in Egypt, Daiesh or what ever they are called at the moment (I would opt for 'Gay Copraphagy', on the grounds that no one would be attracted by a group called that, well very few :lol: but less of the stand-up routine), would destroy it.

I have requested that my remains are burned at Uphelleia and then studied to see the effects open pyres, doubt my wishes will be fulfilled in that respect but might get onto a 'body farm' which is not as interesting but still useful.

If you read what Howard Carter did to Tutankhaten, almost literally a chainsaw massacre, but then the Egyptians had covered him in resin! Alexander, by the way, is said to have requested mummification, but only in the Romance and LdM. That said, the deed was done in Babylon almost certainly by Egyptians (the Babylonians dry smoked their mummies, although, given tales of broken noses,that may have been the manner of his preservation). It is unlikely that he ordered a cremation and that was denied. Perdikkas cancelled the expensive plans, the mummification was likely in line with Alexander's wishes.
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Alexias
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by Alexias »

Maybe museums could be viewed as modern temples to worship the dead. But seeing the face of a bog body is still unsettling.

Anyway, it seems unlikely Alexander organised his own funeral as he couldn't manage to organise his successor. Being young, he wouldn't have admitted he was dying until the last moment. He may have said something about mummification when organising Hephaestion's funeral, whose funeral was probably the template for Alexander's intended own one. Mummification doesn't preclude later cremation, probably intended at Aegae.
agesilaos
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by agesilaos »

I would agree that Perdikkas probably intended to cremate Alexander at Aigai, to inaugurate his bid for the throne; Ptolemy put the kybosh on that. We are told that Alexander left last plans so he may have made provision for his own burial; of course they may only have become Last Plans once he died.

Bog bodies are indeed very immediate due to their good preservation, but they are just the bodies which demand thorough investigation due to the lack of any written histories by the people performing the ceremony.
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by Taphoi »

Strictly speaking there was no mummification at Babylon. The sources are clear that there was evisceration of the corpse to suppress internal rotting (Curtius 10.10.13). Then the cadaver was preserved in perfumes, spices and honey (Curtius 10.10.13 & Armenian Alexander Romance 283 & Julius Valerius 3.57). Proper permanent (Egyptian) mummification would have employed natron to dry out the remains instead. So the ambition at that time did not necessarily extend beyond temporary preservation pending a visit to Ammon for deification or else a return to Aegae, depending on who you were.
That said, once the remains were in Egypt, nobody could destroy the corpse of a pharaoh with fire without committing a vile sacrilege against Egyptian religion, which supposed the pharaoh to have further need of his body to achieve his apotheosis.
Should the sixty-year-old woman in the Amphipolis tomb prove to be Olympias, then DNA identification will of course become feasible, but there is virtually zero chance of DNA from Philip's cremated bones.
Best wishes,
Andrew
agesilaos
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by agesilaos »

And there is virtually zero chance of the Kastas skeleton being Olympias! :lol:

Whilst you are right about the initial methods, you must consider the length of time before the body was moved, over two years; further processes must have been applied else the flesh would have rotted. Late period mummification was not performed with Natron instead resin soaked rags, bitumen even mud or shards packed out the body cavity. Given the time issue it is likely that the process applied did take place in Babylon.

Consider the body has been marinading in honey and spices and is then smoked in an aromatic wood smoke; might the stories of Alexander's sweet body odour not be linked to this. Nothing would prevent expert Egyptians coming to Babylon of course, but I am unclear as to how expert they were at this period.

You will think I am being picky (because I am) but the Pharaoh needs his body for his Resurrection not his apotheosis, he was already a living God and the sacrilege applied to every Egyptian not just Pharaoh, the idea was the same for early Christians, though they thought they would only need their bodies on the day of the Second Coming, the Egyptians needed theirs to be reborn into the Afterlife, though I confess to being a bit fuzzy on Egyptian Theology :oops:
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Taphoi
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:Late period mummification was not performed with Natron instead resin soaked rags, bitumen even mud or shards packed out the body cavity. Given the time issue it is likely that the process applied did take place in Babylon.

Consider the body has been marinading in honey and spices and is then smoked in an aromatic wood smoke; might the stories of Alexander's sweet body odour not be linked to this. Nothing would prevent expert Egyptians coming to Babylon of course, but I am unclear as to how expert they were at this period.
Natron was used as a desiccant - not as an embalming agent or packing-out material. It was always so used. The next stage after evisceration was that the body was packed in natron and the pile was left out in the sun to completely dry out. My point was that there would have been no need for honey, if the body had been dried out in Babylon. Egyptian mummies did not require honey. Honey was only relevant, if you needed to extract the body again. As you say, bitumen and bindings were better for permanent mummification.
It is questionable whether bitumen was ever used for Alexander's corpse. If he was left in honey for long enough, it would probably have been unnecessary and the story about Octavian breaking off a piece of the nose requires that any bindings or shrouds were readily removed from the corpse.
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Andrew
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amyntoros
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:The sources are clear that there was evisceration of the corpse to suppress internal rotting (Curtius 10.10.13). Then the cadaver was preserved in perfumes, spices and honey (Curtius 10.10.13 & Armenian Alexander Romance 283 & Julius Valerius 3.57). Proper permanent (Egyptian) mummification would have employed natron to dry out the remains instead.]
Taphoi wrote:Natron was used as a desiccant - not as an embalming agent or packing-out material. It was always so used. The next stage after evisceration was that the body was packed in natron and the pile was left out in the sun to completely dry out. My point was that there would have been no need for honey, if the body had been dried out in Babylon. Egyptian mummies did not require honey. Honey was only relevant, if you needed to extract the body again.
Not so sure that the use of honey was a temporary mummification as it also apparently works successfully as a dessicant/embalming agent. Doubtful too that the body could be extracted again after the use of honey. There's an article in the Saudi Medical Journal appropriately called Embalming with Honey. The (small) bodies used in their experiments had their viscera removed and were immersed in honey for a month and then allowed to dry out. They remained mummified for 1-3 years which is as long as each was observed in the experiment.

There may be a suggestion that Alexander's body was not allowed to dry and out and was kept covered in honey for the duration of the preparations and journey, but I cannot imagine that it would have been protected from rotting or from insects for such a long period if that were the case.

I am about to give a link to the article and I am compelled to give a forewarning. I do not know the beliefs or moral opinions of our members and all others who read the forum at Pothos. It is, in fact, none of my business. However, the SMJ experiment used donated fetuses as well as small animals and there are photographs also. If anyone has objections to this then please do not read the article.

http://smj.org.sa/index.php/smj/article/view/5079/2853

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Amyntoros

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Alexias
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Re: Alexander's Grave Will Be found

Post by Alexias »

If you want to be really PC, Richard was a Catholic who acknowledged the Pope as head of the church. He should not have been reburied in an Anglican church, which does not acknowledge the Pope as head of its church. :wink:
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