Establishing casualty numbers

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karen
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Establishing casualty numbers

Post by karen »

The advantage of an electronic copy is that you don't have to key the passages. I think the ideal way to do it would be read the hard copy, then when we find something we want to add to the file, we do a search for it in the electronic copy, then just cut & paste.

I said I'd do Arrian, and I suspect Amyntoros might be willing to do some. Hmm... maybe I should do Curtius instead of Arrian, as I'm a very fast typist. All right, strike me off Arrian and put me on Curtius.

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Re: Establishing casualty numbers

Post by marcus »

karen wrote:The advantage of an electronic copy is that you don't have to key the passages. I think the ideal way to do it would be read the hard copy, then when we find something we want to add to the file, we do a search for it in the electronic copy, then just cut & paste.

I said I'd do Arrian, and I suspect Amyntoros might be willing to do some. Hmm... maybe I should do Curtius instead of Arrian, as I'm a very fast typist. All right, strike me off Arrian and put me on Curtius.

Warmly,
Karen
Hi Karen,

I took the liberty of changing the subject title, so that it's clearer what we're talking about when we look at the list of topics. Hope you don't mind.

I will post the Justin numbers on this new thread once I've done them. I don't know if Amyntoros will indeed assist with this new piece of madness ... but if you're happy to get stuck into Curtius, I will make a start on Diodorus as and when I can.

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Thanks Marcus

Post by karen »

The new thread is good.

My preference is to do all the casualties we can -- both sides -- and include things like starvation & thirst. (But not illness -- those who died of it might well have even if not on campaign.)

If you're up for all this!

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Re: Establishing casualty numbers

Post by amyntoros »

marcus wrote: I don't know if Amyntoros will indeed assist with this new piece of madness ...
I'm not opposed to helping, however, I'm currently committed to reading both volumes of Pausanias from cover to cover and extracting all relevant excerpts on Macedonia, Philip, Alexander and the early Hellenistic period (Successors). It's a project I've put off for far too long and I don't want to delay it further, but it will take some time. When I'm finished I'll be happy to assist with this project, but by then you folks may not need me. :)

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Post by Paralus »

You're all barking mad!

But, I shall wait to see what transpires. Just remenber, the Macedonians - being real soldiers of exceptional strength and valour - didn't ever lose too many to the Persian hordes.

I too might have a shot at it though, if time permits. Problem is I'm working my through a couple of tomes on Persia. I would think that the chapters on the Macedonian conquest in these might constitute what might be called the "apocrypha" of the Alexander Canon.
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Post by amyntoros »

Paralus wrote: Just remenber, the Macedonians - being real soldiers of exceptional strength and valour - didn't ever lose too many to the Persian hordes.
We have to think of the invasion as if it were in a Kung Fu movie. Although greatly outnumbering the Macedonians, the enemy only attacked one at a time while the rest just stood there, shifting from foot to foot until it was their turn! :lol:

Sorry, Marcus and Karen. You started a new thread for casualty numbers and I'm already derailing it, but once that image came into my head I haven't been able to get rid of it. :wink:

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Post by Paralus »

Ha, ha, haa!

No, not shifting from foot to foot waiting their turn, standing transfixed whilst suffering severely from incontinence.

I promise to be good from now on Marcus......
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Post by marcus »

Paralus wrote:I promise to be good from now on Marcus......
No no, please carry on with the bad behaviour.

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Blood pressure rising ... and rising ...

Post by marcus »

karen wrote:The new thread is good.

My preference is to do all the casualties we can -- both sides -- and include things like starvation & thirst. (But not illness -- those who died of it might well have even if not on campaign.)

If you're up for all this!

Warmly,
Karen
I'm rapidly losing my pothos for this project, now I've started having a look at Diodorus. It isn't that it's a long and messy task (which it is), but that it's just going to take ages ... and I haven't even set myself clear criteria. At the moment I'm ignoring when it says that there was "great slaughter", for example, because that's really no help - I'm just including times when either (a) exact numbers are given, or (b) when (e.g. at Persian Gates) it says that he slaughtered "almost all" of the enemy (where a number of the enemy has been given in the first place).

If that makes sense.

Whether my head will explode before I finish any of this remains to be seen.

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Post by Paralus »

marcus wrote:
Paralus wrote:I promise to be good from now on Marcus......
No no, please carry on with the bad behaviour.

ATB
Bad? Bad! Whoever described it as bad??!!

A promise to be good does not necessarily indicate the absence of good before the promise. Only that it may continue from the time of the promise.

I wish you luck deciphering the "great slaughter" and "many Persians were slaughtered in this...", etc. You have something in the order of 1,710,000 Persians to work through (very Herodotean) - and that just the set pieces. Once that is completed, there are untold Bactrians, Sogdians and, of course, Indians.

This, too, does not take account of those happy beneficiaries of Alexander's vision (according to my DVD) left behind by Alexander in Asia Minor/Cilicia. Those that Antigonus was forced to re-acquaint with the benefits of conquest on two or so occasions in 332/1.

The Macedonian issue is a little more straightforwad. Give their valour and strength, not many actually seemed to have died as a result of the main set pieces. Can't remeber Arrian's Gaugamela figures but he only mentions some 236 dead after Granicus and Issus. Even were we to add Curtius' 450 we still get 565.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Into Curtius

Post by karen »

I have the Yardley translation which includes a summary of the missing first two books by Weckel, so -- going on that. These figures mostly come from Diodoros. I'm at Alexander's illness in Tarsos and in given numbers, I'm up to 18629. But -- echoing Marcus's frustration -- they're all given as "more than" and plus there are events for which no numbers are given, such as the Marmares of Lycia "committing mass suicide." How many of them were there? ???

When I'm finding an unspecified number like that, I'm just quoting it straight with the location/people and the page number. It may be that another source will have numbers for that same slaughter.

There's just no way we're going to get this exact -- best we can do is a range.

I unfortunately don't own a copy of JC Fuller's Alexander book, but as I recall he wrote some interesting stuff about battle casualties, and how the patterns have changed since the invention of firearms... that guns really are "the great equalizer" in terms of evening up casualties between victor and vanquished. This doesn't reduce my skepticism about the six and even seven-figure numbers given by ancient sources, since they're simply impossible for supply reasons -- but five figures of infantry being killed in a day I can see as plausible in a rout, if the victors are determined to slaughter.

Barking mad? Probably. But it's something that adds to the whole picture of Alexander. If you don't have time to finish Diodoros, Marcus, don't worry... I will.

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Re: Into Curtius

Post by marcus »

karen wrote: such as the Marmares of Lycia "committing mass suicide." How many of them were there? ???
Ah, well, the Marmares is an interesting one, because Diodorus does give *some* indication of numbers. Although it is not the full number, he states that "some" of them chose to immolate their families, while they themselves ran off further into the mountains. Of this latter group he states that there were 600, so if we can extrapolate the average family size (which I can't without some help) we can multiply it by 600 and at least come to a figure for those who burned to death in their Cathar-style, Gotterdammerung-inspired, pre-Waco mass suicide.

Oh Gawd, am I getting sucked in too deep?
:cry:
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Re: Into Curtius

Post by amyntoros »

marcus wrote:Oh Gawd, am I getting sucked in too deep?
:cry:
I think it's inevitable once you start a project like this - it's not possible to do it "halfway" which is the reason I couldn't commit to it right now. I am having much more fun, I suspect, with Pausanias. And I, umm, have only just finished Book I so I doubt I'm going to be able to help, which makes it all the more embarrassing that I'm about to ask a favor of you and Karen. When you reach the part about India (in any of the histories) please let me know if there's any reference to Persian troops being with Alexander. Pretty please . . . :oops:

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Persians with Alexander in India

Post by karen »

It's icky cleaning up the dead... even if you're doing it only abstractly.

Suggest copious doses of gallows humour.

I'm way over 100,000 now, as I'm past Issos -- except that I find Curtius's figures hard to believe in their one-sidedness, as Paralus was bemoaning. Hmmmm...

Off the top of my head, at least Darius's brother Oxathres was still with Alexander when they got to India, was he not? Anyway, if I spot more Persians accompanying him there, Amyntoros, I'll let you know.

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Re: Persians with Alexander in India

Post by amyntoros »

karen wrote:Off the top of my head, at least Darius's brother Oxathres was still with Alexander when they got to India, was he not? Anyway, if I spot more Persians accompanying him there, Amyntoros, I'll let you know.
Thanks, but I, er, am not looking for individual Persians, for I know there were a few of them with Alexander as hostages for their families' good behavior, etc. :) What I'd like to know is if there is any mention or implication that there were large numbers of Persian troops in India. I read in an article recently that there were such troops, but no sources were given and I (as usual) can't remember offhand where I read this! Duh!

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