Re: Nonsence
Moderator: pothos moderators
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Daniel
Re: Nonsence
Beloch and Kaerst are old sources and regarded as outdated today. Borza, Badian, Green have all reviewed both ancient and modern sources on the ancient Macedonian language and concluded that it is impossible that it was a Greek dialect but a distinct language.
Re: Nonsence
Green seems indescisive. Borza has his opinions and i respect them. He makes a few mistakes i believe, including bypassing the Dorians as ancestors of the Ancient Macedonians(which the Ancient Macedonian kinds aknowledged).
Who says they are outdated? you?Here is what John Hall of Harvard University says:
If one looks at the ancient sources on Macedonia we find several points of view, none of which correspond to the modern position of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The points of view(courtesy Professor John Hall, Harvard University)
That the language of Ancient Macedonians was
a.) a Greek dialect related to West-Greek group
b.) a Greek dialect related to Aeolic-Greek group
c.) a Greek dialect related to West-Greek and Aeolic
d.) a Greek dialect not related to any major group
e.) an essentially Greek dialect with some non-Greek features
f.) an Illyrian language with Greek adstrate.(Borza may be a proponent of this) It is worth examining these very divergent hypothesis'
One of the most difficult problems to overcome in examing the language of the Ancient Macedonians is the fact that very little of their spoken language exists, because they showed little inclination in writing it down until the 4th century. After this the language of the court and of public records and the upper class was that of Koine Greek, a common language derived from the Attic dialect of Athens.
Despite this, it is clear that the Attic dialect was not the common tongue of the Macedonians, and that the kingdom represented an early example of Diglossia. In spite of this, scholars are not sure which words exactly are Macedonian origins. They simply have to use toponyms and onomastics to show what words were "Macedonian". In particular Hesychios the ancient grammarian is a help in this, and the primary source of "Macedonian" words. Toponyms are not a good indicator of linguistic ties, since incoming populations often preserve the previous names of places of older inhabitants. Macedonian personal names are more promising in this manner. The vast majority of names on the Vergina cemetary stelae are recognizably Greek(these tombs spanned the years 375-275 B.C). This is indicative that these names were in use amongst the population of Vergina by the end of the 5th century. Literary sources also attest a number of known Greek names,
Alexander, Hephaestion, Kleitos, Olympias, Parmenion) though some appear more epichoric(Araba
Who says they are outdated? you?Here is what John Hall of Harvard University says:
If one looks at the ancient sources on Macedonia we find several points of view, none of which correspond to the modern position of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The points of view(courtesy Professor John Hall, Harvard University)
That the language of Ancient Macedonians was
a.) a Greek dialect related to West-Greek group
b.) a Greek dialect related to Aeolic-Greek group
c.) a Greek dialect related to West-Greek and Aeolic
d.) a Greek dialect not related to any major group
e.) an essentially Greek dialect with some non-Greek features
f.) an Illyrian language with Greek adstrate.(Borza may be a proponent of this) It is worth examining these very divergent hypothesis'
One of the most difficult problems to overcome in examing the language of the Ancient Macedonians is the fact that very little of their spoken language exists, because they showed little inclination in writing it down until the 4th century. After this the language of the court and of public records and the upper class was that of Koine Greek, a common language derived from the Attic dialect of Athens.
Despite this, it is clear that the Attic dialect was not the common tongue of the Macedonians, and that the kingdom represented an early example of Diglossia. In spite of this, scholars are not sure which words exactly are Macedonian origins. They simply have to use toponyms and onomastics to show what words were "Macedonian". In particular Hesychios the ancient grammarian is a help in this, and the primary source of "Macedonian" words. Toponyms are not a good indicator of linguistic ties, since incoming populations often preserve the previous names of places of older inhabitants. Macedonian personal names are more promising in this manner. The vast majority of names on the Vergina cemetary stelae are recognizably Greek(these tombs spanned the years 375-275 B.C). This is indicative that these names were in use amongst the population of Vergina by the end of the 5th century. Literary sources also attest a number of known Greek names,
Alexander, Hephaestion, Kleitos, Olympias, Parmenion) though some appear more epichoric(Araba
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Daniel
The Macedonian Language
Spare yourself from spamming long already prepared propaganda mails. This one didn't even fit the screen 
As this forum clearly says, the Greek/MACEDONIAN debate is not allowed. You forgot Badian though. And Arrian, and Plutarch, and CURTIUS, and Pseudo-Callisthenes! Borza anyways had put an end. I can easily post 100 pages of both ancient and modern evidence where it is clearly proven that the ancient Macedonian was a distinct language, but I will not drug the forum or myself with a Greek racist. There are only one Macedonians and they are neither Greek nor Albanian. Like I proved in the previous post, it is your problem that you can not accept a simple fact and that in the study there is clear mentioning to ancient and modern Macedonians as oposed to Greeks, not "Slav Macedonians" not "Greek Macedonians" not "Albanian Macedonians". Obviously YOU are a rasist since you forge i.e. rename the truth.Case closed.
As this forum clearly says, the Greek/MACEDONIAN debate is not allowed. You forgot Badian though. And Arrian, and Plutarch, and CURTIUS, and Pseudo-Callisthenes! Borza anyways had put an end. I can easily post 100 pages of both ancient and modern evidence where it is clearly proven that the ancient Macedonian was a distinct language, but I will not drug the forum or myself with a Greek racist. There are only one Macedonians and they are neither Greek nor Albanian. Like I proved in the previous post, it is your problem that you can not accept a simple fact and that in the study there is clear mentioning to ancient and modern Macedonians as oposed to Greeks, not "Slav Macedonians" not "Greek Macedonians" not "Albanian Macedonians". Obviously YOU are a rasist since you forge i.e. rename the truth.Case closed.Re: The Macedonian Language
Like a crafy politician, you turn the tables. However, the option remains open for an e-mail conversation, i look forward to hearing from you.
p.s. where did they get macedonian dna? do you have any idea?
p.s. where did they get macedonian dna? do you have any idea?
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beausefaless
- Hetairos (companion)
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Re: Nonsence
For me this has been a healthy debate I hope some day we can find a common ground my mind is always open but until then with all due respect;In Opis, during the mutiny of the Macedonian Army, Alexander the Great spoke to the whole Macedonian Army addressing them in Greek (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 9,10). The Macedonian soldiers listened to him and they were dumbfounded by what they heard from their Commander-in-Chief. They were upset. Immediately after Alexander left for the Palace, they demanded that Alexander allow them to enter the palace so that they could talk to him. When this was reported to Alexander, he quickly came out and saw their restrained disposition; he heard the majority of his soldiers crying and lamenting, and was moved to tears. He came forward to speak, but they remained there imploring him. One of them, named Callines, whose age and command of the Companion cavalry made him preeminent spoke as follows: GÇ£Sire, what grieves the Macedonians is that you have already made some Persians your GÇÿkinsmenGÇÖ, and the Persians are called GÇÿkinsmenGÇÖ of Alexander and are allowed to kiss you, while not one of the Macedonians has been granted this honorGÇ¥ (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII, 8-11).
The previous story clearly reveals that the Macedonians were speaking Greek since they could understand their leader. There were thousands of them, not just some selected few who happened to speak Greek. It would be unrealistic for Alexander the Great to speak to them in a language they supposedly did not speak. It would be impossible to believe that the Macedonian soldiers were emotionally moved to the point that all of them were lamenting after listening to a language they did not understand. There is no way for the Macedonians to have taken a crash course in Greek in 20 minutes so that they would be able to understand the speech simultaneously as Alexander was delivering it. Furthermore, the Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the GÇ£kausiaGÇ¥ (+¬+í+¦+¦+ƒ+í) (Polybius IV 4,5; Eustathius 1398; Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII 22; cf. Sturz, Macedonian Dialect, 41) from the Greek word for heat that separated them from the rest of the Greeks. That is why the Persians called them GÇ£yauna takabara,GÇ¥ which meant GÇ£Greeks wearing the hatGÇ¥. The Macedonian hat was very distinctive from the hats of the other Greeks, but the Persians did not distinguished the Macedonians, because the Macedonian speech was also Greek (Hammond, The Ma
The previous story clearly reveals that the Macedonians were speaking Greek since they could understand their leader. There were thousands of them, not just some selected few who happened to speak Greek. It would be unrealistic for Alexander the Great to speak to them in a language they supposedly did not speak. It would be impossible to believe that the Macedonian soldiers were emotionally moved to the point that all of them were lamenting after listening to a language they did not understand. There is no way for the Macedonians to have taken a crash course in Greek in 20 minutes so that they would be able to understand the speech simultaneously as Alexander was delivering it. Furthermore, the Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the GÇ£kausiaGÇ¥ (+¬+í+¦+¦+ƒ+í) (Polybius IV 4,5; Eustathius 1398; Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII 22; cf. Sturz, Macedonian Dialect, 41) from the Greek word for heat that separated them from the rest of the Greeks. That is why the Persians called them GÇ£yauna takabara,GÇ¥ which meant GÇ£Greeks wearing the hatGÇ¥. The Macedonian hat was very distinctive from the hats of the other Greeks, but the Persians did not distinguished the Macedonians, because the Macedonian speech was also Greek (Hammond, The Ma
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beausefaless
- Hetairos (companion)
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:20 am
Re: Nonsence
continuation from my last post I apologize for the error.(Hammond, The Macedonian State p. 13 cf. J.M. Balcer, Historia, 37 [1988] 7).
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Alfred
Re: Nonsence
hmmm, well, from what ive been reading there is nothing that supports the facts that the Greeks have sub-saharan blood in them, and that the ancient Greeks, for the most part, are the same as moderns. heres a really good site for that sort of stuff:
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp/
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp/