Illyrians

[Linda]

hulloCould someone tell me how reliable the information on this site is, or suggest a better source (book etc)http://theillyrians.homestead.com/index.htmlLinda

[THE LIGHT 7000]

Dear friends/ Linda,It is very encouriging and promising, I should say very good that this forum is starting to be real "garden" of various original "flowers" from ancient world...!Regarding this topic, according to my knowledge, there is some objectivness in the written material, but one have to have various sources to come near the real picture, than and now! As our mutual friend from this forum Alex- "Perseus" noted in the topic about "Spanish Zeus", that one must take in consideration and put himself in position in that time, (if it is possible), to get a bit of real flavour of what was going than. For eg., Illyrians, maybe are one part of the ancient Albanians, those from Sth., but as it is stated there were other tribes in Nth. different in their culture from those from Sth. Those Illyrians from Sth.,(region Epirus Illyria Makedonia, i.e. today Nth./West Greece, Sth. Albania), , they are very close to today Vlachs from this part, that is why there is simularities with Italian language, becouse of closness and relations to Rome. Informations re: wars with Makedonians are almost correct and mainly those re; Philip conquering them. Info. about Peonia, are not so correct, because, to my knowledge, Peonia was in the heart of Makedonia, and is older than named states. It's culture is amaizing and is something that is comming to light which will make difference in almost anything re: culture, continuity etc. of this part of the world and the world in general. (I do not want to comment further...). I will say only this: the fact that Peonians (Upper Makedonia), did not pay taxes to Makedonian Kingdom (Lower Makedonia), before and in/ after tome of Philip and Alexander, is telling us that they were one country even than. ...I hope that there will be somone on this forum who is aware of Vlach (Epirian) and Illyrian culture and tradition, so can say more about it, and we can only learn and upgrade presented, with our knowledge, for better understunding of our past, so we could build bridges for cooperation with understunding and respect to each other in the future... that is life all about...!With respect- The light 7000

[jorgios]

Well, the site is produced by an Albanian. It is a popular nationalistic belief by Albanians that they are the descendents of the Ancient Illyrians. It is also however likely that they are their descendents to a great extent.The site creates its own subdivisions of people though, such as "Helleno-Illyrians" and "Thraco-Illyrians". This is where it's nationalist bias shows. There is of course a lot of other reliable information. However it's views on the subdivisions and languages of the groups(specifically "Helleno-Illyrians" ) is all speculation probably motivated by modern nationalism.. still, there is some good scholarship in there in my opinion!

[smittysmitty]

Hi Linda, I thought the site was quite good and gives a fairly good general overview of Illyrian scolarship.
I guess as with all things, we need to address the sources from which the information was attained for a better and deeper understanding. It's bibliography is quite good and valuable to those wishing to further develop their understanding of Illyrians and their place in history.As to the nationalistic overtones as suggested by jorgios, I couldn't detect that at all. I actually found the geographical subdivision of the tribes as depicted by the author, to be refreshingly helpful for those (including myself) that may find it hard to grasp the enormity of area/involvment the Illyrians played in history.
just my thoughts.
Cheers!

[jorgios]

well i think his information on the "italo illyric" tribes is a bit strange in my opinion. He proposes a theory that the Arbereshe of south Italy and Sicily are in fact the descendants of the Messepes and Venets(Venets dont seem to be Illyrians, in most modern scholarly circles at least, In addition Venets inhabited North Italy, not south). If you know about the Arbereshe, they were Albanian-Byzantine mercenaries that settled in south italy after the conquest of their homeland by the Turks around 1500 A.D. Based on this i think it is unlikely that these Albanians of south-Italy have much relation to the ancient messapians of Italy. I tend to think this is just one manner in which the website is just a little biased.Though, as i said before it has it's strong points. i much prefer Dragoslav Srejovic's book "the Thracians and Illyrians" however.

[THE LIGHT 7000]

Dear friends,
... Maybe you are both right, but without taking into account native people from particular region i.e. Vlach, VlachoIllyrians/Epirians, no one will find the real picture. I am saying this becouse they have simularities with Italian language, yes Vlachs and some Albanians from south of Albania...Others ore newcommers, as Albanians and Vlachs today are saying about those from Nth. of Albania. Same is for Makedonians, in this case of Peonia and now Veneti tribes...All major ethnic groups were founded from many tribis with simular traditions, language etc., like my friend Yannis K noted re: today modern Greeks..., so one must have open mind and show/allow others to say something about themselfs with their own "language", otherwise everything is just great "mystery". This "misterious" kind of approach and various books by "great scoolars" were/are main source for nationlistics episodes and no respect for each other, distortion/misinterpretation of reality, so with respect and dialogue we could make difference! If you put youreself in that time, even now, you will find out that on the borders people have mixed marrieges, simularities in languges etc., and is common. No one can separete various ethnic groups fom each other, spetially not those on the borders with one other, with straight cut, and in most books and interpretations people are doing this over and over distorting the truth. On the other hand, as Yorgios noted, in different periods from various reasons rullers were resetling poples to change somthing with intetnion... So one must have to have open mind for any posibilities and not to jump instantly, because this world will change it's own phylosophy about itself with more realistic aproach towards any problem anywere...But again as Smitty is saying, and I was/am saying, this is very good aproach to begin with, and also good start and example how to get into froendly dialogue just to have general knowledge of the situation than and now. This is supported again more with the fact that Alexander and Makedonia were not just that, but they were Europe, Asia, Africa, and later the World!...
So I do not see any restrictions to get into dialogue concerning all sides, including Kelts. Yes even Alexander, and before, there were wars but there were also various relationships between civilisations, so one can find Makedonian words in Kelts and simular. Friendly dialogue with respect and open mind without bouderies in hearts, minds and souls is

[yiannis]

Vasko, once again you're mixing modern with ancient times!
The Vlachs (a Slavic term-they call themseles Arumans), are first mentioned in 976CE by the Byzantine Georgios Kedrinos. They originated from modern-day Romania. Their language has Latin origins. They migrated all over the Balkans since they were primarily shepherds. They have no connections to the ancient Illyrians. Btw, Albanoi is only one of the Illyrian tribes and at the and it gave its name to all of them)

[Demi]

Hello Yiannis,I agree that we shoudn't mix the ancient times with the modern ones. Actually, this is a forum dedicated to Alexander the Great and he lived in the ancient times. So, the reason I'm posting this message is to find out more about the Molossians. How they looked like (hair, skin colour, eyes, type of dress....)? I'm interested because Alexander was half-Molossian (from his mother's side)and half-Macedonian. Thanks,

[yiannis]

Hi Demi,I don't know many details about the Molossoi when it comes to dresses etc. I guess it shouldn't be much different than the rest of the Hellenic world.
In the Iliad is mentioned that AchillesGÇÖ son Neoptolemos, when the war against Troyan ended, he took Andromachi, HectorsGÇÖ wife as a loot. They settled down on Pindos mountain where they founded their kingdom. They named their son Molossos.
His descendants named Molossoi, are the people who live on mountain Pindos and their dogs considered to be from ancient years the most powerful and fearless ones, GÇ£MolosidesGÇ¥ Etymologically speaking the word GÇ£MolossosGÇ¥ is consisted of the word GÇ£moloGÇ¥ or GÇ£maloGÇ¥ which means very, huge, bellicose, mountainous and the ending GÇ£ssosGÇ¥ which means locality. Alexander the Great claimed to be AchilleGÇÖs descendant, since his mother Olympias was the princess of Molossos.
The famous oracle of Dodona was in Epirus.

[Demi]

Hi Yiannis,Thank you. I find the explanation of the name Molossoi quite interesting and logic... so, they named themselves a "mountainous people". And yes, Alexander used to empasize his blood connection with Achaean ancestors (by Neoptolemus, Achilles' son). Now, I wonder did the other Molossoi people have the same look as Alexander (Olympias) because as I know, Philip had dark curly hair, dark eyes and darker skin colour than Alexander. What do you know about their physical appearance?
Regards

[THE LIGHT 7000]

Helo my dear friend,
... As you can see from other's reply, if we want to have clear picture about "today", we must enter "yesterday", because without that, everything is "wind in the fog...", as we are saying. Our past is connected to our present and vice versa, so it is mirror for our future..., they are inseparable!Re: Vlachs, I think you are not right, because they have their stories too, like Greeks. So, they are most competent to talk about them selfs, not vice versa. With little patients and respect we will reach a "top of the mountain" point, the point from where we can see more clearly our past, present and therefore our creative future! Again names were changed/changing for various reason, so search and look form every "side" is what we are looking for. Eg. your comment about MOLO=MALO, is opposite in Makedonian, and means MALO=SMALL, or could means MALO=NEIGHBOURHOOD, as it is even now. SOSS, I could guess only, I am not expert here, but could mean SELO=VILLAGE, because as many ancient Makedonians, so most of Vlachs use to live on moutains as sheaperds, = chobanos=chobani, and as it is now, they use to live in small viliages over the mountains, or live in MAALA=NEIGHBOURHOODS. This, about names, is related directly to ancient legend re"ARGEADS" and foundations of Makedonia. As you probably now, in the past "...long long time ago...", there were two brothers who use to "work" as sheaperds- chobanos/chobani. They use to work for money and after a while, they had small fortune wich was bigger and bigger spreading and forming what is today known Upper Makedonia, (R. Of Makedonia with its parts in Bulgaria and Albania, the theritory of ancient Peonia...), and Lower Makedonia- Aegean part of Makedonia, nth. of Olymp. So, my comment here is to explain what you are explaining: the meaning of words, their relation to
ancient and present times, and connections with this reality, i.e. our every day life. So in that manner ARGEAD=ARGAD= menas person who is working on the fields (hired person for most of domestic jobs), for money, and this is directly connected, from each and every aspect to Argeads and Makedonia.Re: term VLACH, again, you are maybe right about apereance of it, but it must have roots, so as Demi is saying, "we are here" (unobligated, volontarily in friendly manner with respect...), to discuse same and to make change in one -other way of approach towards one cultural heritage! This is today very much of importance, becaus

[THE LIGHT 7000]

cont.
. So, my comment here is to explain what you are explaining: the meaning of words, their relation to
ancient and present times, and connections with this reality, i.e. our every day life. So in that manner ARGEAD=ARGAD= menas person who is working on the fields (hired person for most of domestic jobs), for money, and this is directly connected, from each and every aspect to Argeads and Makedonia.Re: term VLACH, again, you are maybe right about apereance of it, but it must have roots, so as Demi is saying, "we are here" (unobligated, volontarily in friendly manner with respect...), to discuse same and to make change in one -other way of approach towards one cultural heritage! This is today very much of importance, because it won't take long before officially there will be World /National/Ethnic/ Cultural Museums, to search and preserve every and each cultural identity and heritage on this planet from the "known" /our begining!!!... That is why is important everyone to have something to say about it self, it is time...With respect The light 7000

[yiannis]

Vasko, I took the Vlach informations from their semi-official site http://www.aromanians.netWhere did you get your information?When it comes to your notions about MOLO=MALO and the origins of the term Agread, I'm not even sure if you're just being funny or if you mean what you say!
In any case I'd like to remind you that you compare two different things. Modern-day SLAVIC language that you speak and is in use in FYROM and ancient Greek-Macedonian language. These two have no connection whatsoever. You better limit yourself to puns...

[Demi]

Hello Yiannis, Vasko,Your debate about the meaning of the ancient words is very interesting although I'm not an expert but, I can say something from the books I've read about the ancient Macedonia. So, I know that Makedon means "tall" or "high" and Macedonia and Orestis mean respectively "upland" and "mountainous". Thus, the Macedonians could be "uplanders" or "highlanders" (the mountainous people or people living on very high lands)... and Argead has a connection with the word "goat" / people who breeded goats.Also, I'm interested to know more about the Molossians: their physical appearence (I've already mentioned my interest about them in my previous message).And alhtough I don't want to talk about the present, I would like to add that the Vlash people have their own language which is not "Slav". Vasko, am I right? Maybe they speek any slav-type of language but, that's coming from the country they live in. ...
...also, I would like to know what did I say with "we are here"... I just don't remember. Regards

[THE LIGHT 7000]

RE-ILLIRIANS by LINDA,: MOLLOSIAN-VLACH, Hi Demi/Yannis K
Hi, First of all my apology to Demi and others, re: these words GÇ£we are here..GÇ¥, they are are mine, not yours, and there is no connections with you, maybe my mistake or GǪSecondly, how you can interpretate and freely talking about Makedonian language and alphabet being GÇ£SlavGÇ¥, when you are saying that there is NO WRITTEN EVIDENCE OF MAKEDONAN LANGUAGE AND ALFABET , NOR FALANGA, NOT PHALANXGǪ, what about that , what is Makedonian, what Slav and what who knows what, ( but remember to write and to save your answer and keep it under pillow for a while, because it wonGÇÖt take long before everything would come to light!). Now let me ask you something, would you translate for us/me original title of Library from Alexandria in Greek or in any other language in the world, that has same meaning and words like original GÇ£BIBLIOTHECA ALEXANDRINAGÇ¥, (in Makedonian, even today means Library that belongs to Alexander or/and Alexandria!). Simple and very practical task , but please do not use philosophy again!Thirdly- Demi has right, this term/name MOLLOSIAN, MOLLO/ MALLO + SI+AN is exactly in connection with family genetic line of people, (I did not comment it with purpose, now is time GǪ), and their appearance. This means MALO+SI, meaning YOU ARE SMALL, i.e. SMALLER THAN OTHER, or MALO+SOY, this means MALO=SMALL, SOY= description of family hereditary line, (eg. Vasco is GÇ£soyGÇ¥ of GǪ, Vasco is like GǪ). So these people, apparently were smaller than Makedonians, and they use to call them that name. In Makedonian language and alfabet, everything is very direct and simpleGǪ Re: posted web by Yannis, I do not know what to comment because is not openingGǪ
Anyhow, this is connected to name and language of people who belongs to Vlach nationality, even Greece is not recognising them like many. Yes Demi, VlachGÇÖs have their own hystori, culture, traditions and yes- language! Many years ago I use to speak with Vlah and he said that he was Yugoslavian. I told him that he is Vlah from Makedonia not Yugoslavia, and should be proud of what he is, but he did not accepted. Years latter we met each other and again I ask him what he was, because there was no Yugoslavia than, so he smile at me, thank me and said he was Vlach from Makedonia, and his cousin Vlah from Greece! From than we are good friends!
As I said before, ancient Makedonian tribes were partly Hellenised, Romanised, and that is normal way even to