ATG Trivia continued...

[Nicator]

Hello Linda Ann,"But if you post this as a "myth" you have to be able to accurately refute the claim and I think you might be inviting a debate on the subject. But any kind of debate it could generate would be better served on a medical forum. Its the kind of subject that invites a paper from a professional."Sorry to hear about your child. I don't remember where I read this one, it just came to mind, so I posted it. From what I know about bipolar disorders (mostly learned from my Abnormal Psychology class), they generally come in two, not entirely separate and distinct, categories. 1. manic-depressive
2. excessive-compulsiveIn my thinking, ATG doesn't quite fit either one. He had periods of depression, but these were brought on by tragic events, i.e...Cleitus the black's death, and Hephaestion's death come immediately to mind. There don't seem to be any "manic" corollaries to offset these events, even after his great military successes. The truth is, there is precious little information on ATG's personality. Excessive-compulsive is another matter, I guess? There is ample information to suggest compulsive behavior, but I would argue, that it doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. He seems to me to be just incredibly successful, and that doesn't necessitate excessive-compulsive, or manic-depressive. His life personified the natural occurence of a sparse childhood (under Leonidas), proper academic tutoring (under Aristotle), military training, foreign instability (Darius), some luck (Cilician Gates, march to Siwa, etc...), uncommon intelligence, and dogmatic determination. Compulsives, have an inability to control their drives. The only aspect here that jumps out at me is his insessant warring. Even on his deathbed, he planned to conquer Arabia. Is this compulsive, or just doing what he knows and loves? Also, bipolar disorders have a tendency towards swinging to their opposite extremes, and it doesn't seem that ATG ever swung around to some kind of an extreme peace period. Any way you look at it, professional or otherwise, bipolar disorders are poorly understood, sometimes symptoms cross between manic-compulsive, or depressive-compulsive/excessive, etc...As a side note, I'm surprised Alexander doesn't come up on any of the lists for bipolar disorder, and just as surprised about George Washington being on such a list? later Nicator

[amyntoros]

Hello Nicator:I'm pretty sure that the authors mentioned have considered Alexander to be manic-depressive. The difficulty as I see it is - how does someone separate symptoms of the illness in a man who was in such a position of power? How could a psychiatrist recognize grandiosity, for instance, and see it as a symptom of bipolar in The King of All Nations? Wouldn't you expect him to be grandiose? A person with bipolar disorder wouldn't necessarily show evidence of extended periods where he was either "up" or "down." A rapidly cycler could swing backwards and forwards between poles many times in a single day. (My son was diagnosed as a rapid cycler - extremely rapid, I might add!) That said, here is an incomplete list from a layman's point of view of some of the things they might look for in "diagnosing" Alexander. Sudden swings in mood, feelings of grandiosity or even hubris, irritability, too little sleep without feeling the effects, sleeping too much (at the end, after drinking all night, Alexander sleeping through the day and sometimes the next day as well - after a while, most people would get up, even with a hangover) racing thoughts, rapid speaking, excessive energy, overactive, excessively outgoing, taking needless risks without regard to the consequences, excessive sexual behavior without regard to the consequences, periods of withdrawal, over-sensitivity, extreme generosity with money and gifts, episodes of violence, irresponsibile actions (the burning of Eumenes (?) tent comes to mind), the need to "control" everything and everyone, sudden, unexpected angry outbursts, physical disregard for pain and bodily suffering, and sometimes "superhuman" strength. Of course, many bipolar people exhibit few of these symptoms. For some, being bipolar means only an obvious swing in moods - my stepdaughter comes to mind here - she was diagnosed at 17.However, if someone wanted to examine Alexander's life they could probably find examples of everything in that list (and more) to justify giving him the diagnosis. Apparently some authors have already done so! Oh, I almost forgot - you would find this disorder more often in people of high intelligence. But in my humble opinion, given Alexander's status in the world and the prevailing wars and attitudes at the time, it would be very difficult to prove that his behavior and attitudes weren't a result of his background and social position and not symptomatic of any disorder. As

[marcus]

This is really fascinating - thank you for sharing it with us.As you quite rightly say, one could go down the list and find Alexander's expression of just about every single one of them - and indeed that is exactly what I did - but I am equally aware that I am not a doctor, psychologist or whatever, and I would be *extremely* hesitant about using any of that as 'proof' that Alexander was bi-polar.I am tempted to suggest that we should capture all this great info of yours into a section for the site, but we would have to cover it with some watertight disclaimers! :-)All the bestMarcus

[amyntoros]

Hello Marcus:I'm pleased that the information is of interest. The end of my previous post didn't make it on to the forum - I *still* haven't learned to check after posting. I said that this could easily cause debate, but I take no particular stance, and I am not a mental health professional. I would prefer to see psychiatric input, though I'm not sure that any of the authors who declared Alexander to be bipolar actually consulted a doctor.Have you seen the website that has an article where a doctor was shown the known information on Alexander's death and gave his own diagnosis, followed by a historical discussion by Borza? Something similar would be very enlightening, but I don't know if a psychiatrist or psychologist with a consuming interest in Alexander the Great can be found! :-)Linda Ann

[Nicator]

Indeed, you find most any one of those symptoms in Alexander. If I thought about it, I could find most any one of those symptoms in myself, but don't consider myself bipolar. My biggest argument against this possibility in Alexander is that he was so consistently successful. A person afflicted with a bipolar disorder cannot pick and choose when he will need to be up or down. Alexander needed to be up consistently, and for long periods of time. I was going to mention the cycling phenomenon, but my post was already getting long, and at 4:45am I was ready to crash. I would use cycling as further proof that ATG wasn't bipolar. The only way that could work would be if his cycle was measured in years, and he was fortunate enough to have spent most of his campaigning years in the up portion of the disorder. This doesn't pan out either, as he clearly never came down for years on end, but had normal periods of depression in between this incredible up period. He, as mentioned before, had his bouts of depression. These were a bit excessive, but not abnormal. When a person undergoes any kind of serious emotional trauma, he/she needs time to heal. Certainly, this would apply to Alexander, superhuman though he was, just as to any other person. Bipolars typically, go up and down for no apparent reason, i.e...they don't require a trigger, that's why it's a disorder. If he was abnormal, particularly mentally unstable, I'm sure we would have heard of it from the Athenians, and those unscrupulous men who followed his reign. In conclusion, I would re-state part of my earlier post, and that is that any bipolar disorder, whatever is may be, cannot be applied to Alexander. It simply doesn't hold up under close scrutiny. later Nicator

[amyntoros]

Hello again Nicator:I'm not going to disagree with you! Any writer looking to say that Alexander was bipolar could "find" evidence - that's why I gave the list as an example of what they might look for according to today's known information on the disorder. And obviously some writers have decided that this claim is justified. But, by the same token, anyone could argue that it was Alexander's personality and no more. This all began because I didn't think Alexander being bipolar should be posted as a "myth", simply because it is open to too much debate.I promise you - I am not advocating that he was bipolar, in fact I was afraid that I might be misunderstood when I first commented on this subject. :-)All the best,
Linda Ann

[Nicator]

Hello Linda Ann,"Any writer looking to say that Alexander was bipolar could find evidence"In my opinion, there is no credible evidence to support this thesis, end of story. Only evidence of a man who dreamed and did greatly...in a unipolar fashion. Of course, I know you're not advocating anything of the sort. I do think it should be listed as a myth however, given the afforementioned reasons.
I am replying not necessarily to your post as a confrontational viewpoint, but rather as information for other members who might be further inclined to think that there "is" something to the myth. Nuff said, it's been a pleasure chatting with you, and informative as well, have a nice day...Nicator

[susan]

Linda, Marcus, everyone.. Professor Borza sent me a copy of his paper on Alexander's death, after he'd looked at this site and thought that it needed such a section. Maybe we should do this now. I think this thread is about to disappear off the page, and I think it would make a useful section, so I'll start collecting the postings now.
Regards
Susan