RE: Chariot sports

[ruthaki]

This isn't a 'lazy student' question. I've just spend a couple of days browsing through notes, books and other stuff and can't find the answer.
Does anyone know the name of the sport where they would leap off the chariot, run alongside and then leap back on to it? I understand Alexander was quite accomplished at this. I don't see it listed under any Olympic type games so it was likely a soldier's thing. Thanks in advance.

[X]

Was that a sport? I thought it was just exercise

[marcus]

I think X is right - it wasn't a recognised sport, but it was good exercise. I bet it was - speed, stamina, balance etc.You are right, Ruth, that it is mentioned somewhere that Alexander used to 'play' it - relieving the tedium of the march, perhaps? All the bestMarcus

[ruthaki]

OK, you're right. I guess it was just 'for sport'. The boys showing off their skills and relieving tension on the march, I suppose. I couldn't find it listed among any of the Olympic equestrian sports but I recall having read that the soldiers did this often as a kind of practice and that Alexander was quite skilled at it. Thanks for your help.

[beausefaless]

Horses do not trot slow only when they walk, It was likely nothing, I can't fathom jumping off anything moving even if the object is moving slow, too dangerous and no one can afford an injury epically in antiquity, but I will keep searching.

[amyntoros]

The only reference I know of is from Plutarch:"If he were on a march which required no great haste, he would practise archery as he rode, or mounting and dismounting from a moving chariot, and he often hunted foxes or birds, as he mentions in his journals."This thread has roused my curiousity. There is at least one other mention in the histories of Alexander riding on a chariot - his entry into Babylon comes immediately to mind. But is there reference to anyone else in the Macedonian army riding one? All the best,
Linda Ann

[marcus]

Hi Linda,Not that I'm aware of. Alexander appears to have taken to using a chariot after Gaugamela, when he first used Dareios' chariot for his entry to Babylon (as you mention). (This depends, of course, on whether one believes the story of dragging Batis' body around Gaza.)To be honest, I doubt if he used a chariot very often at all - once he was in Northern Iran and off towards Bactria, the terrain was hardly appropriate.All the bestMarcus

[beausefaless]

Thank you Amyntoros,
Thanks to you I recall having this discussion before, I believe I addressed this subject to Marcus in a message thread on Alexander's use of the bow and arrow. Here's another translation from Plutarch by John Dryden:
"In marches that required no great haste, he would practice shooting as he went along, or to mount a chariot and alight from it in full speed. Sometimes, for sport's sake, as his journals tell us, he would hunt foxes and go fowling".
I feel Alexander was in the best of shape (his legs were built if he was able to mount and dismount from a chariot at full speed), as so was his men even the women and children that carried on. I'm not sure if there's reference to anyone else in the Macedonian army riding one but the war chariots were built for two and Alexander's army utilized everything they could from their defeated armies, horses, mules, weapons, chariots, carts and etc.
I agree with Marcus when he says, "I doubt if he used a chariot very often at all - once he was in Northern Iran and off towards Bactria".

This thread has also roused my curiosity and I'll carry on when I am able, thanks again.
Take care,Andrew

[marcus]

Hi Andrew,Yes, I thought the chariot reference had come up before somewhere, and was racking my brains - you're right, you did cite it during the bow and arrow discussion.I think you're absolutely right - there must have been thousands of men, women and children trudging around Central Asia with remarkable muscular development of the thighs and calves!I wonder whether they had athlete's foot in those days?Marcus

[beausefaless]

LOL,If so, the smell of parmesan cheese must have scented the air.Nicely done!Andrew

[marcus]

LOL!Actually, that makes me feel quite ill. Excuse me a moment...

[amyntoros]

Thanks Andrew for the Dryden translation. It's interesting to see how two different translators interpret the same information. I have the Penguin edition of Plutarch's The Age of Alexander, but I rather prefer your Dryden version. Another book for for my wish list.I've actually found what seem to be errors in different translations. When describing Alexander's dress before the battle of Gaugamela, the Penguin edition says he wore an ornate cloak made by Helicon that was presented to him by the city of Rhodes. The 1919 Loeb edition online says it was a belt. Small detail, but big difference!And I've always wondered about that reference to Alexander sleeping with a copy of the Iliad under his pillow. Books in those times were written on scrolls that were rolled individually and stored several at a time in (leather?) tubes - even up to the times of Plutarch, Arrian, etc. The Iliad is a substantial book and must have taken many scrolls to complete. If Alexander had slept with the Iliad under his pillow, he would have been sleeping sitting up! Somehow, I think the translation should be "at the head of his bed," but to my knowledge, no writer has ever commented on this. Sorry, I've wandered off topic, as usual. Regarding the fitness of the army and camp followers - Alexander and the cavalry must also have had extremely strong and sturdy thighs - perhaps obvious enough to distinguish a horse-rider from the rest of the army? How else could they have held their seat on a horse without stirrups? I'm no authority on horses, but I can't imagine anyone with skinny little legs hanging on to a horse for too long. :-)Thanks also to Marcus for reminding me of the Betis incident - I had forgoten that one.All the best,
Linda Ann

[ruthaki]

Their horses weren't very big, compared to some horses today or the tall Nissaians of the Persians.
And they rode well forward. (I've been doing my homework). I understand the Macedonian army didn't drag along a lot of carts and wagons as it slowed them down. The men had to carry all their belongings on their back. They got food wherever they travelled so didn't pack aload of supplies. And I don't think women and children were allowed to tag along until much later. (Supposedly Philip didn't allow it) This is why they were so quick and were able to maneuver with so much agility which was in their favour. The Persians, on the other hand, took along everything including the kitchen sink and all their harmes too. And...thanks for the comments on the chariot-jumping sports. I guess it was like when guys run alongside a moving train and jump on. Dangerous! But they were a hardy bunch of guys.

[S]

Greetings,Having ridden bareback most of my life, in many unusual circumstances and various conditions and terrain, it is possible to do so without developing "massive" thigh muscles, though good thigh and calf muscles along with extremely strong bones and a sense of balance helps. You don't "grip" the horse at all times. Balance and a good seat is the key and knowing how to "sit deep" into the movement of the horse as well as anticipate its movements. You can take a hit and still remain astride, you can do extreme turns at a canter and still remain astride.. In fact, the worst I ever hurt was when I used a saddle for the first time (laughing); after 8 hours in the saddle, I had discovered real discomfort!Regards,
Sikander

[beausefaless]

Before Issos yes but after I completely disagree except marching over the Hindu Kush. Logistics was the nucleus of all of Alexander's campaigns, Alexander put Hephaistion in command of all the supply lines that came through shipping and the ports at this period of the campaign, after Tyre and Gaza the army marched south through harsh terrain towards Egypt, this same fleet sailed along the coast dropping supply magazines.
I will continue this debate further but I must retire for now for I have lots of snow plowing and will continue early tomorrow morning.