I cant Decide wether the Gaugamella Battle scene the Best?

[agesilaos]

If you do actually read the sources, of whom Arrian is the only one worth mentioning, you will find (all refs to bkIII)13 i 'ege de os epi to dexion to autou Alexandros mallon' But Alexander lead them somewhat to the right - This may mean he faced right and marched there or it may imply an oblique line of advance; mallon can mean 'more' as well as 'somewhat'. What is clear is that this is no precipitate rush at 13 ii'...kai Alexandros eti homos gen epi doru...' and Alexander still continued going steadily right (lit.'spearwards') although 'steadily' comes from the emphatic juxtaposition of 'eti homos' both of which mean 'still' but very definitely at 14 ii '...embolon poiesa tes te hippou tes hetairikes kai tes phallangos tes tautei tetagmenes ege dromoi te kai alalagmoi epi auton Dareion.' he formed a wedge of the cavalry of the Companions and the phalanx stationed with them there and led them at the charge with a warcry at straight Darius - clearly he had been progressing at infantry speed since the phalanx was still in touch with the Companions nor can the infantry have been running along with them as it is now that Alexander orders them to advance at the double ('dromoi') - other units had been sent off faster to the right (Menidas and Aretas) to counter any Persian outflanking move, due not to Bessos moving left but to the fact that the Persian left already overlapped Alexander's right by some way 13 i; the sucess of the advance troops causes the Persians to reinforce the flank with Bactrians from the centre 13 iii-iv and allows Alexander to charge STRAIGHT at Darius.

[nickw]

Dear Kenny ---There is nothing wrong with giving hand signals as such. I agree that shouting wouldn't have been very productive. The essence is: even from Darius' position, let alone Alexander's, you would never have a clue about what's going on along a 2.5 mile wide, dusty front. If Darius would have been able to give orders to Bessus, Bessus and his troops were about at least 1 mile or 1.5 kilometers away. You can't communicate with hand signals over that large a distance.The point is: an ancient commander had to organise most of his troops prior to battle. Anticipating on what was to come. That was about 90% of the work. Adjustments during battle were in general risky and not very practicable.Alexander was obviously very good at this. His strongest troops were always at the point where they caused a large impact. Of course, as he was heading the 1,800 Companion cavalry, Alexander was able to move this flexible body of horses & armour around at relatively short notice. But that wouldn't apply to most of the Macedonian phalanx nor the Persian troops.And as far as I understood our sources, Bessus moved to encircle the Macedonian positions first, only then Alexander made his brilliant move. (Strange movie.)Regards ---Nick

[beausefaless]

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[kenny]

Andrew Companions HailIll try keep ya going.I liked the tacic and the way it was shown. It was in unison and descriptive with the pre battle war council. Maybe it wasnt exactly as Gaugamela but it was very descript. Pin them on the walls of your sarisas and Darius cavalry will follow me out to the right.Its common sense that he would have had to ride for miles along the Persian line to cause the feint and ruse. I wagewr Darius must have thought Alexanders dashing out right to get behind me.Tactically Darius had to counter this manouver and chase him. Not knowing his forces would cause the gap and the genius would be in there.

[kenny]

Cont.I agree Andrew Stone could do more detail etc withg the battle but how long would that take up.I thought a job well done and still top marks. The only problem I had was Alexander scurrying after his hacking sword from an unfortunate Persian it made the guy look very very clumsy. He would have had an aid to rearm him im sure.Tactically for me the battle scene was on the money.Regardskenny

[beausefaless]

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[kenny]

Andrew HailNot wimpish just a little erratic and clumsy.I doubt at all you could put those haching swords into a body like Alexander got his stuck in the Persian. It just look clumsy the way he was scurrying around to retrieve his sword.Maybe an excuse to Show Cleitus saving Alexander. But he should have done it Authentic. Didnt the sources say Alexander on his horse had dispatched a few persians then this guy came behi9nd Alexander and took a swing at his head shearing his helmet. The Clietus saved his skin. That would look much better. It to me looked like a man looking for his glasses.RegardsKenny

[Paralus]

I believe I'd have to agree with you Karl - or Agesilaos.I'd have to admit to being well into a bottle of Shiraz (the amount of which consumed during a film indicates how it is playing - bad film/more red) by the time Gaugamela made it to screen in Stone's 'epic'. The compression of Granicus/Issus/Gaugamela into the one hybrid action (for instance Clietus "the Black" saving Alexander at Granicus suffering a Hollywood transplant some years and more than a thousand kilometres thence) for the sake of Hollywood simplicity GÇô the single gigantic clash that destroyed an empire GÇô went a long way to ensuring a second bottle would be ordered!If you must have the one climactic battle to defeat the Achaemenid Dynasty, then at least do it justice. The obscuring of the action by dust clouds (though surely close enough to reality) seem simply a "cop-out" by the film maker in avoiding the "Helms Deep" computer graphic fuelled screen-filler so often referred to on this thread. As you point out, The Companion Cavalry seemed to have charged off to Babylon by the time Alexander turned and struck at Darius. We can never be certain exactly what happened on the day. We can be sure that Alexander continued to extend his right as the armies closed, feeding in units as he continued to edge to the right whilst keeping Bessus (having followed his 'camp' orders to attempt to outflank the Macedonian right) as heavily engaged as possible. But charging out to the right? I suppose a gradual, even inexorable extending to the right (at a trot for the cavalry?) doesn't look as sexy as a head long charge.Meanwhile, the carnage on the left between Parmenio's Thessalians (and infantry) and Mazaeus was unrelenting. I feel this was underdone in the film as well. Perhaps that is a little harsh, but aside from the decisive charge at the gap the Macedonian right-ward movement evidently cracked open near to Darius, this is where the battle was not lost , though had Parmenio not held, it most certainly would have been. Aside of course from Issus, where the entire adventure (with a decent Persian commander in chief) should have come a-cropper.I will need to hire the DVD and revisit the film methinks GÇô in case it wasn't as disappointing as I felt it to be.

[Paralus]

Yes Kenny, the sources say almost that:"Now Spithridates had his scimitar raised, ready for a blow at Alexander from behind; but Clietus ("The Black"), son of Dropidas, was too quick for him and severed his shoulder scimitar and all" (Arrian, 1.16)Problem is, it happened some three and a half years earlier (c.May 334 bce) and at a river far, far away.And as another has observed on this thread (Karl I think), there is no way the Companian Cavalry charged out to the right. It had to moving right at a speed that did not leave the Hypaspists and the phalanx exposed.And yes it was no "walk in the park" but possibly the least pleasant place to be was the inhuman carnage involved in holding Parmenio's wing?