Alexander exhibition in Oxford
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spitamenes
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Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
A few years ago I was able to see the exhibit on the treasures from the city or Ur. There was a gold crown, from a queen I believe, that I saw pictures of when it was originally excavated. But then when I was able to see it in person I must have studied every inch of it for over an hour. It was such a difference being able to see it up close and personal. It didn't move me to tears but it was definately an amazing piece. The whole exhibit was very interesting and well put together.
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Well, I didn’t actually burst into tears but I spent an absorbed hour and three quarters at the Alexander exhibition in Oxford. That, of course, is a bit of a misnomer as it isn’t really an exhibition about Alexander and doesn’t claim to be. Alexander is only present in this bust here http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/25312.html, found at Pella and dating to about 300 BC. I was strongly tempted to at least touch it, if not take away with me.
Alexander is also present in the things he would have selected to place in Philip’s tomb, such as the (then) 100 year old bronze tripod, the beautifully worked silver cup and jug. There are none of the principal items from Philip’s tomb here, not surprisingly, except for the greaves, which I will come back to in a moment.
The exhibition though is really about the world of Alexander’s royal family as revealed principally through the burials at the ancient royal city of Ageae, ending with the finds from the tomb of what has been identified as Alexander’s son, Alexander IV. The exhibition has three rooms, the world of the king, the world of the queen, and the banqueting room. It starts with some of the earliest ‘royal’ finds from Macedonia, long bronze swords from the 13th century BC imported from the Mycenean world to the south, followed by the short swords of the iron age, the iron head, hand grip and butt of a sarissa and some other iron items. Interestingly, no axes, but I’ll come back to that.
On the opposite side of the room are various kingly items such as the tripod, a gilt diadem, and various vessels. There is also the gold wreath which I believe is the one Robin Lane Fox was referring to. It is a stunning profusion of golden oak leaves and tiny acorns about half an inch long, and none of the pictures do it justice. However, to clear up any confusion, for me at least, this is not the queen’s wreath. There are two gold wreaths in the exhibition, the other is a myrtle wreath of leaves and flowers, and this is the one believed to have belonged to one of Philip’s early wives, Meda.
The gold oak wreath is too big for a woman in any case, and was found in the sanctuary of Eukleia, the goddess of good repute, in 2008 along with the cremated remains of a young man of about 17, and is dated to about 310 BC. This is pure supposition, but could it be Alexander’s son Herakles? I'm not sure that this is the same gold wreath that is pictured in the small guide book as this is dated 325-300 BC.
There is also the golden head of Medea which has been used as the frontispiece for the exhibition. It was once attached to Philip’s linen corselet. Only an inch and a half across, the workmanship is incredibly fine. I must do some research about the significance of snakes for warding off harm.
On the opposite wall to the swords etc. is a large representation of the painted hunting scene from the façade of Philip’s tomb. Its size enables you to study it in some detail, for example, I hadn’t realised that the figure of Alexander is wearing a wreath of green leaves; I had assumed it was a helmet he was wearing.
At the end of the room is a statue of a young man wearing a knee-length tunic belted around the lower ribs rather than the waist and a short cloak. Interesting statement about normal daily attire. Accompanying it is a statue of a boar with a greyhound-like dog balancing on its back and biting its ear. Interesting hunting method. These come from the gymnasium at Ageae and are believed to represent a dedication by a young man at his coming of age.
In the centre of the room are pieces of broken pots from the tomb of Philip’s mother Eurydike with a large quantity of big iron nails. Many of these nails, up to 8 inches long, have their ends bent at 90° as though they were too long for whatever they were nailed through and the ends have been hammered to bend back flush into the wood. Presumably in the days before screws, this was a common method for securing woodwork.
In the second room are the myrtle gold wreath, several life-sized terracotta heads dating to c.480 BC, one still bearing the red painted Greek key symbols on her headdress, a good many figurines, one still bearing pale purple on her robes, toilet articles, a good many vases, many of which still show strong reds, blues, and browns on the garments of the figures against a white background. The principle items in this room though are the funerary wear accompanying five female burials.
The best of these is the ‘Lady of Ageae’, about 30 years old when she died in c.500 BC. She was literally covered in gold, gold soles to her shoes, gold rosettes sewn onto her skirt (presumably attached by the hole in the centre), thin gold snake bracelets, a ring (surprised there weren’t more rings and bracelets), a gold plaque at her waist (without buckles, heavy belts would have been difficult to secure presumably), several exquisitely worked gold pins, bracelets and pendants to adorn her bosom and shoulders, including two huge pins about 10 inches long with beautiful filigree heads. She also had a gold bead necklace, beautiful golden earrings, an upright diadem of sheet gold engraved with mythological scenes and her mantle would have been edged in engraved gold strips about an inch wide. Most curious though are the coils of gold wire, almost like miniature ringlets, which she would have worn framing her face. Very Schliemann-like. The other women had what I believe are silver versions of these ringlets.
Also in this room are two heads of classical type, one a young man who shows Alexander characteristics (the bent neck, the parted lips), although it isn’t Alexander, and a young woman, possibly Athena.
The third room contains the vessels used at banquets with which kings consolidated the support for their rule, from the early clay vessels through to the silver cup, ladle, jug (no spout, curiously, so it was probably ornamental rather than functional) and bowl from Philip’s tomb. There is an elegant ice bucket that wouldn’t have looked out of place in the 1920s or 30s from Alexander IV’s tomb, but the item that caught my eye here was a small ivory figure which was inlaid into a footstool from Alexander IV’s tomb. No bigger than 3 inches high by 4 inches wide, it is an exquisitely detailed figure of a bearded man’s torso, his arms outstretched. He is wearing long sleeves, presumably Persian dress, a lock of his long hair still remains on one shoulder, and his minute fingers are curled outwards, standing proud from the rest of the hand. The workmanship is extraordinary. I think the workman would have had to work outside in natural light to see clearly what he was doing.
I haven’t done a very good job of explaining this exhibition, but those are some of my thoughts.
What did I learn from the exhibition?
a) The exhibition opens with a quote from Herodotus (8.137-8 I think), which I need to look up, about Perdiccas and his brothers at the gardens of Midas from where they went forth and recovered the kingdom. I don’t know if this is Philip’s brother or an earlier king (which I suspect), but it is interesting that the gardens of Midas which I’ve seen associated with Mieza (are they the same?), had obviously had a long royal association. I may be completely wrong here, but it was just a thought that struck me.
b) Macedonian warriors tended to be buried with two spears rather than a sword and helmet. This would seem to be indicative of the importance placed on hunting rather than hand to hand fighting as the measure of a man.
c) Macedonian queens often seem to have been buried with a staff bearing triple double axes (three axes one above the other). These seem to have a religious significance relating to their function as high priestesses. I need to do some research about double-headed axes but they are quite ancient symbols from what I recall, connected with chthonic gods and the sacrifice of victims.
Yet how does this relate to the use of axes in hunting? On the hunting scene from Philip’s tomb, there is a foreground figure, more prominent than Philip or Alexander who are both clothed, on horseback and armed with spears, who is naked and wielding an axe. I couldn’t see if it was double-headed. You have got to be damned brave (or stupid) to go up against an enraged lion (chased by horses, baited by dogs and speared), naked and wielding an axe. Is this figure some sort of hunting deity, a specially designated huntsman whose job was to despatch the lion, or is it some sort of initiation rite for a young man to ritually offer the killing stroke to a lion with an axe?
Sorry for this digression, but I have been thinking about the representations of naked hunters in Macedonian art recently and would appreciate any thoughts. If Pages were designated to chase the prey towards the hunters, running naked in the heat would seem to make sense, and running barefoot if your only alternative were floppy tie-on sandals would also make sense. Yet actually hunting animals naked with only a cloak to wrap around your arm doesn’t seem to make sense, unless it was a rite of passage, an unusual occurrence, or it was an artistic convention to show hunters naked.
d) Philip was not a big man. The greaves, I am guessing, would make him about 5 foot 4 or maybe 6 inches tall. They are also surprisingly slender-legged for a man in his mid-forties. They are presented with the right (his right, the left as you look at them) leg advanced. I don’t know if this is artistic convention, but presented like this, I couldn’t see the supposed difference in length. The left one (his left, the right as you look at it) certainly looked a little twisted, but not enough to account for Val Kilmer’s club-footed gait, and I wasn’t certain if it was just the greave having been crushed a bit.
Finally, was the exhibition worth going to? Yes, it was certainly worth the £8 entrance fee, although it wasn’t anywhere near as busy as I thought it would be. I am not certain it is worth a plane flight though as I really took my time at nearly two hours to look round.
Apologies for this having been such a rambling report. I have posted some photos of the small version of the exhibition catalogue here http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/25450.html#cutid1. If you zoom into 150% you should be able to read it. I haven’t really looked yet at the big catalogue.
Finally finally, could I just say that if there is anyone who likes going to museums to look at statues etc., I have set up a small community here http://www.livejournal.com/users/greek_art if anyone wants to join or just browse (hope it’s okay to post this link).
Alexander is also present in the things he would have selected to place in Philip’s tomb, such as the (then) 100 year old bronze tripod, the beautifully worked silver cup and jug. There are none of the principal items from Philip’s tomb here, not surprisingly, except for the greaves, which I will come back to in a moment.
The exhibition though is really about the world of Alexander’s royal family as revealed principally through the burials at the ancient royal city of Ageae, ending with the finds from the tomb of what has been identified as Alexander’s son, Alexander IV. The exhibition has three rooms, the world of the king, the world of the queen, and the banqueting room. It starts with some of the earliest ‘royal’ finds from Macedonia, long bronze swords from the 13th century BC imported from the Mycenean world to the south, followed by the short swords of the iron age, the iron head, hand grip and butt of a sarissa and some other iron items. Interestingly, no axes, but I’ll come back to that.
On the opposite side of the room are various kingly items such as the tripod, a gilt diadem, and various vessels. There is also the gold wreath which I believe is the one Robin Lane Fox was referring to. It is a stunning profusion of golden oak leaves and tiny acorns about half an inch long, and none of the pictures do it justice. However, to clear up any confusion, for me at least, this is not the queen’s wreath. There are two gold wreaths in the exhibition, the other is a myrtle wreath of leaves and flowers, and this is the one believed to have belonged to one of Philip’s early wives, Meda.
The gold oak wreath is too big for a woman in any case, and was found in the sanctuary of Eukleia, the goddess of good repute, in 2008 along with the cremated remains of a young man of about 17, and is dated to about 310 BC. This is pure supposition, but could it be Alexander’s son Herakles? I'm not sure that this is the same gold wreath that is pictured in the small guide book as this is dated 325-300 BC.
There is also the golden head of Medea which has been used as the frontispiece for the exhibition. It was once attached to Philip’s linen corselet. Only an inch and a half across, the workmanship is incredibly fine. I must do some research about the significance of snakes for warding off harm.
On the opposite wall to the swords etc. is a large representation of the painted hunting scene from the façade of Philip’s tomb. Its size enables you to study it in some detail, for example, I hadn’t realised that the figure of Alexander is wearing a wreath of green leaves; I had assumed it was a helmet he was wearing.
At the end of the room is a statue of a young man wearing a knee-length tunic belted around the lower ribs rather than the waist and a short cloak. Interesting statement about normal daily attire. Accompanying it is a statue of a boar with a greyhound-like dog balancing on its back and biting its ear. Interesting hunting method. These come from the gymnasium at Ageae and are believed to represent a dedication by a young man at his coming of age.
In the centre of the room are pieces of broken pots from the tomb of Philip’s mother Eurydike with a large quantity of big iron nails. Many of these nails, up to 8 inches long, have their ends bent at 90° as though they were too long for whatever they were nailed through and the ends have been hammered to bend back flush into the wood. Presumably in the days before screws, this was a common method for securing woodwork.
In the second room are the myrtle gold wreath, several life-sized terracotta heads dating to c.480 BC, one still bearing the red painted Greek key symbols on her headdress, a good many figurines, one still bearing pale purple on her robes, toilet articles, a good many vases, many of which still show strong reds, blues, and browns on the garments of the figures against a white background. The principle items in this room though are the funerary wear accompanying five female burials.
The best of these is the ‘Lady of Ageae’, about 30 years old when she died in c.500 BC. She was literally covered in gold, gold soles to her shoes, gold rosettes sewn onto her skirt (presumably attached by the hole in the centre), thin gold snake bracelets, a ring (surprised there weren’t more rings and bracelets), a gold plaque at her waist (without buckles, heavy belts would have been difficult to secure presumably), several exquisitely worked gold pins, bracelets and pendants to adorn her bosom and shoulders, including two huge pins about 10 inches long with beautiful filigree heads. She also had a gold bead necklace, beautiful golden earrings, an upright diadem of sheet gold engraved with mythological scenes and her mantle would have been edged in engraved gold strips about an inch wide. Most curious though are the coils of gold wire, almost like miniature ringlets, which she would have worn framing her face. Very Schliemann-like. The other women had what I believe are silver versions of these ringlets.
Also in this room are two heads of classical type, one a young man who shows Alexander characteristics (the bent neck, the parted lips), although it isn’t Alexander, and a young woman, possibly Athena.
The third room contains the vessels used at banquets with which kings consolidated the support for their rule, from the early clay vessels through to the silver cup, ladle, jug (no spout, curiously, so it was probably ornamental rather than functional) and bowl from Philip’s tomb. There is an elegant ice bucket that wouldn’t have looked out of place in the 1920s or 30s from Alexander IV’s tomb, but the item that caught my eye here was a small ivory figure which was inlaid into a footstool from Alexander IV’s tomb. No bigger than 3 inches high by 4 inches wide, it is an exquisitely detailed figure of a bearded man’s torso, his arms outstretched. He is wearing long sleeves, presumably Persian dress, a lock of his long hair still remains on one shoulder, and his minute fingers are curled outwards, standing proud from the rest of the hand. The workmanship is extraordinary. I think the workman would have had to work outside in natural light to see clearly what he was doing.
I haven’t done a very good job of explaining this exhibition, but those are some of my thoughts.
What did I learn from the exhibition?
a) The exhibition opens with a quote from Herodotus (8.137-8 I think), which I need to look up, about Perdiccas and his brothers at the gardens of Midas from where they went forth and recovered the kingdom. I don’t know if this is Philip’s brother or an earlier king (which I suspect), but it is interesting that the gardens of Midas which I’ve seen associated with Mieza (are they the same?), had obviously had a long royal association. I may be completely wrong here, but it was just a thought that struck me.
b) Macedonian warriors tended to be buried with two spears rather than a sword and helmet. This would seem to be indicative of the importance placed on hunting rather than hand to hand fighting as the measure of a man.
c) Macedonian queens often seem to have been buried with a staff bearing triple double axes (three axes one above the other). These seem to have a religious significance relating to their function as high priestesses. I need to do some research about double-headed axes but they are quite ancient symbols from what I recall, connected with chthonic gods and the sacrifice of victims.
Yet how does this relate to the use of axes in hunting? On the hunting scene from Philip’s tomb, there is a foreground figure, more prominent than Philip or Alexander who are both clothed, on horseback and armed with spears, who is naked and wielding an axe. I couldn’t see if it was double-headed. You have got to be damned brave (or stupid) to go up against an enraged lion (chased by horses, baited by dogs and speared), naked and wielding an axe. Is this figure some sort of hunting deity, a specially designated huntsman whose job was to despatch the lion, or is it some sort of initiation rite for a young man to ritually offer the killing stroke to a lion with an axe?
Sorry for this digression, but I have been thinking about the representations of naked hunters in Macedonian art recently and would appreciate any thoughts. If Pages were designated to chase the prey towards the hunters, running naked in the heat would seem to make sense, and running barefoot if your only alternative were floppy tie-on sandals would also make sense. Yet actually hunting animals naked with only a cloak to wrap around your arm doesn’t seem to make sense, unless it was a rite of passage, an unusual occurrence, or it was an artistic convention to show hunters naked.
d) Philip was not a big man. The greaves, I am guessing, would make him about 5 foot 4 or maybe 6 inches tall. They are also surprisingly slender-legged for a man in his mid-forties. They are presented with the right (his right, the left as you look at them) leg advanced. I don’t know if this is artistic convention, but presented like this, I couldn’t see the supposed difference in length. The left one (his left, the right as you look at it) certainly looked a little twisted, but not enough to account for Val Kilmer’s club-footed gait, and I wasn’t certain if it was just the greave having been crushed a bit.
Finally, was the exhibition worth going to? Yes, it was certainly worth the £8 entrance fee, although it wasn’t anywhere near as busy as I thought it would be. I am not certain it is worth a plane flight though as I really took my time at nearly two hours to look round.
Apologies for this having been such a rambling report. I have posted some photos of the small version of the exhibition catalogue here http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/25450.html#cutid1. If you zoom into 150% you should be able to read it. I haven’t really looked yet at the big catalogue.
Finally finally, could I just say that if there is anyone who likes going to museums to look at statues etc., I have set up a small community here http://www.livejournal.com/users/greek_art if anyone wants to join or just browse (hope it’s okay to post this link).
-
spitamenes
- Hetairos (companion)
- Posts: 329
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:51 pm
- Location: St.Louis, U.S.
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Alexias,
To elaborate on the double headed axes you were writing about, I do know the double headed axe was a symbol of Hephistios, a god afiliated with fire from whom Hephistian was named. And also, your writeup was great! Very interesting. I do wish I had the means to see it in person!
All the best,
Spitamenes
To elaborate on the double headed axes you were writing about, I do know the double headed axe was a symbol of Hephistios, a god afiliated with fire from whom Hephistian was named. And also, your writeup was great! Very interesting. I do wish I had the means to see it in person!
All the best,
Spitamenes
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Many thanks, Alexias. I'll see whether there's anything I can add when I've been!Alexias wrote:Well, I didn’t actually burst into tears but I spent an absorbed hour and three quarters at the Alexander exhibition in Oxford. That, of course, is a bit of a misnomer as it isn’t really an exhibition about Alexander and doesn’t claim to be.
ATB
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
I absolutely love the Ur crown - as I love all the treasures found there. I haven't been to see them for some years, as I've tended to go to the British Museum for specific exhibitions, usually beginning or finishing with a splendid lunch with whoever I'm visiting the exhibition with. But that reminds me to go for a general wander again, at some point!spitamenes wrote:A few years ago I was able to see the exhibit on the treasures from the city or Ur. There was a gold crown, from a queen I believe, that I saw pictures of when it was originally excavated. But then when I was able to see it in person I must have studied every inch of it for over an hour. It was such a difference being able to see it up close and personal. It didn't move me to tears but it was definately an amazing piece. The whole exhibit was very interesting and well put together.
ATB
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Which all comes down to whether or not this is Philip's tomb. I've not checked in the last few years but the scholarly debate was still rather warm the last I did.Alexias wrote:Alexander is also present in the things he would have selected to place in Philip’s tomb...
I think this is not often appreciated. Andronikos conjectured that the large, broad spear points he found were sarisa heads and this has now entered modern scholarship as largely unchallenged conjecture. Others (notably Sekunda) have more plausibly argued that these were the heads of hunting weapons. The sarisa is clearly and unarguably represented in ancient sources as an extremely penetrative weapon (of armour including shields) and this would almost certainly indicate a slender, sharply pointed head rather than the broad head that Andronikos postulates.Alexias wrote:b) Macedonian warriors tended to be buried with two spears rather than a sword and helmet. This would seem to be indicative of the importance placed on hunting rather than hand to hand fighting as the measure of a man.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
I assume that they are making such sweeping statements to add lustre to the exhibition. Like the whole business of the crown belonging to Meda, with the statement that she killed herself to be buried with Philip, for which there is no evidence, of course.Paralus wrote:Which all comes down to whether or not this is Philip's tomb. I've not checked in the last few years but the scholarly debate was still rather warm the last I did.Alexias wrote:Alexander is also present in the things he would have selected to place in Philip’s tomb...
Indeed, just like the bodkin arrows used by English archers to pierce the plate mail of the French knights at Crecy et al.paralus wrote:I think this is not often appreciated. Andronikos conjectured that the large, broad spear points he found were sarisa heads and this has now entered modern scholarship as largely unchallenged conjecture. Others (notably Sekunda) have more plausibly argued that these were the heads of hunting weapons. The sarisa is clearly and unarguably represented in ancient sources as an extremely penetrative weapon (of armour including shields) and this would almost certainly indicate a slender, sharply pointed head rather than the broad head that Andronikos postulates.
ATB
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Thanks for your comments. Apologies for the delay in replying.
Spitamenes, I can’t see that the ladies of Macedonia would have had any particular devotion to Hephaestus. According to wikipedia, the association of Hephaestus with axes is a rationalisation of the birth of Athena, incorporating her with an earlier goddess.
The double-headed axe is an ancient symbol and was used for the despatch of sacrificial bulls in Minoan Crete. I think it is particularly associated with mother goddess, and my question was, what was its symbolism? I suspect it has something to do with the severance of life at birth and death, the nearness of death at birth (symbolised by the cutting of the umbilical cord), and the promise of rebirth at death. The double blade sort of looks both ways, is inescapable, and might be beneficial or destructive.
I suspect the triple use of the double-headed axe represents the triple aspect of many goddesses (eg the Fates), or the different aspects of an earth goddesses – maiden, mother and queen. Below is a picture of the axe symbols from the exhibition.
Paralus/Marcus, I am not quite sure of the size of the sarissa blades you are referring to, but below is a picture of the weapon in the exhibition. It is broader and heavier than the spear and javelin heads shown.
I could be wrong but as a spear is a stabbing weapon, I believe it gains its penetrative power from the thrust (or the flight in the case of a javelin) and this is maximised by a long slender blade. I think the penetrative power of a sarissa or pike comes from its immovability, particularly if anchored in the ground to withstand a charge. You would need a strong blade to withstand this extra pressure of the opponents’ forward momentum.
If the phalanx were moving forward though, I think an 18 foot weapon would be difficult to use as a thrusting weapon, but would be anchored under the arm. Yet you wouldn’t want it to penetrate too deeply because it would be too difficult to extract, leaving you weaponless and the phalanx with holes in it. Its penetrative power would partly depend upon whether the phalanx advanced at the run or at a walk. At a run would greatly add to the penetrative power and would increase the strength of the blade and shaft needed to absorb the impact. I could be totally wrong of course.
Spitamenes, I can’t see that the ladies of Macedonia would have had any particular devotion to Hephaestus. According to wikipedia, the association of Hephaestus with axes is a rationalisation of the birth of Athena, incorporating her with an earlier goddess.
The double-headed axe is an ancient symbol and was used for the despatch of sacrificial bulls in Minoan Crete. I think it is particularly associated with mother goddess, and my question was, what was its symbolism? I suspect it has something to do with the severance of life at birth and death, the nearness of death at birth (symbolised by the cutting of the umbilical cord), and the promise of rebirth at death. The double blade sort of looks both ways, is inescapable, and might be beneficial or destructive.
I suspect the triple use of the double-headed axe represents the triple aspect of many goddesses (eg the Fates), or the different aspects of an earth goddesses – maiden, mother and queen. Below is a picture of the axe symbols from the exhibition.
- IMG_0001a.jpg (6.54 KiB) Viewed 4146 times
- IMG_0002a.jpg (12.51 KiB) Viewed 4146 times
If the phalanx were moving forward though, I think an 18 foot weapon would be difficult to use as a thrusting weapon, but would be anchored under the arm. Yet you wouldn’t want it to penetrate too deeply because it would be too difficult to extract, leaving you weaponless and the phalanx with holes in it. Its penetrative power would partly depend upon whether the phalanx advanced at the run or at a walk. At a run would greatly add to the penetrative power and would increase the strength of the blade and shaft needed to absorb the impact. I could be totally wrong of course.
-
spitamenes
- Hetairos (companion)
- Posts: 329
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:51 pm
- Location: St.Louis, U.S.
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Alexias,
I was just trying to give some info I knew about the dual headed axe. I wasn't implying my comment had to do with the women of Macedonia having an assosiation with hepheistos. Just some information you might be interested to hear. And great pictures of the triple, dual headed,... or, dual headed, triple.., those things.
really though.. they are some interesting little things aren't they? Thanks for sharing the images.
All the best,
Spitamenes
I was just trying to give some info I knew about the dual headed axe. I wasn't implying my comment had to do with the women of Macedonia having an assosiation with hepheistos. Just some information you might be interested to hear. And great pictures of the triple, dual headed,... or, dual headed, triple.., those things.
really though.. they are some interesting little things aren't they? Thanks for sharing the images. All the best,
Spitamenes
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
The literary sources aren't replete with desriptions of just exactly how the sarisa was handled in the fight (as opposed to Polybios' digression on the phalanx). We do have desriptions of its effectiveness and Plutarch's Amellius Paulus (20.3-5) probably comes closest:Alexias wrote:I could be wrong but as a spear is a stabbing weapon, I believe it gains its penetrative power from the thrust (or the flight in the case of a javelin) and this is maximised by a long slender blade. I think the penetrative power of a sarissa or pike comes from its immovability, particularly if anchored in the ground to withstand a charge. You would need a strong blade to withstand this extra pressure of the opponents’ forward momentum.
If the phalanx were moving forward though, I think an 18 foot weapon would be difficult to use as a thrusting weapon, but would be anchored under the arm. Yet you wouldn’t want it to penetrate too deeply because it would be too difficult to extract, leaving you weaponless and the phalanx with holes in it. Its penetrative power would partly depend upon whether the phalanx advanced at the run or at a walk. At a run would greatly add to the penetrative power and would increase the strength of the blade and shaft needed to absorb the impact. I could be totally wrong of course.
"Holding them firmly advanced with both hands" doesn't really enlighten us much. The description is reminiscent of Diodorus' description of the murder of the Indian mercenaries by Alexander (17.84.4):For the Romans tried to thrust aside the long spears of their enemies with their swords, or to crowd them back with their shields, or to seize and put them by with their very hands; while the Macedonians, holding them firmly advanced with both hands, and piercing those who fell upon them, armour and all, since neither shield nor breastplate could resist the force of the Macedonian long spear, hurled headlong back the Pelignians and Marrucinians, who, with no consideration but with animal fury rushed upon the strokes that met them, and a certain death.
Here the text is clealry indicating that the phalangites thrust the sarisae though this might just be Diodorus' "take" on the action. I do believe the weapon was able to be thrust and withdrawn else it becomes a single use item and the phalanx merely a useful pinning porcupine. Gaugamela (and Issos) see Alexander using the phalanx in a clearly offensive role rather than a simple pinning force. Although not attested (and so speculation) the possibility that the sarisa could be passed forward is not out of the question. If the one on one fight with Corrhagus is taken as historical then sarisae were a breakable item and so front rank weapons must have suffered during the fight.The Macedonians thrust (enereidon) with their long spears through the light shields of the mercenaries and pressed the iron points on into their lungs, while they in turn flung their javelins into the close ranks of their enemies and could not miss the mark, so near was the target.
Wide, large blades are generally "damage" blades rather than strictly penetrative. Thus many of the larger wider heads are considered by some as hunting as they would be driven home at close quaters. Interestingly Sekunda sees the cavalry xyston as a wider leaf head for this reason - the ability to cause large wounds. Must find that paper of his on the sarisa...
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
A BBC World News video on the exhibition and ... ... ...
... Eddie Izzard on fighting with the sarrisa.
Best regards,
... Eddie Izzard on fighting with the sarrisa.
Best regards,
Amyntoros
Pothos Lunch Room Monitor
Pothos Lunch Room Monitor
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Both great, thanks!amyntoros wrote:A BBC World News video on the exhibition and ... ... ...
... Eddie Izzard on fighting with the sarrisa.
Best regards,
Eddie Izzard is fantastic, isn't he?
ATB
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spitamenes
- Hetairos (companion)
- Posts: 329
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:51 pm
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Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Eddie had mentioned Alexander in a couple different routines. I think he's hilarious! I wonder if he's a history guy?
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
I don't think he is. I have a feeling he went to Sheffield University, but I don't know what he read there; but I'm fairly sure it wasn't History (or Classics).spitamenes wrote:Eddie had mentioned Alexander in a couple different routines. I think he's hilarious! I wonder if he's a history guy?
ATB
Re: Alexander exhibition in Oxford
Oh yeah, I absolutely adore him. I saw him do the sarissa routine at Madison Square Garden last year where he had elaborated and extended it a bit more than is shown on the Youtube video. I roared with laughter.marcus wrote:Both great, thanks!amyntoros wrote:A BBC World News video on the exhibition and ... ... ...
... Eddie Izzard on fighting with the sarrisa.
Best regards,
Eddie Izzard is fantastic, isn't he?
ATB
Best regards,
Amyntoros
Pothos Lunch Room Monitor
Pothos Lunch Room Monitor