alexander

[Susan]

They were different people - Bagoas the elder was the eunuch who murdered Ochus and was later forced by Darius III to take his own poison. Bagoas the younger was the favourite of Darius III, most likely the son of Pharnuces who is referred to in Arrian, Indica (8,17) as one of the trierarchs who fitted out the fleet on the Hydaspes.
I think that Alexander was different from Philip in that his relationships seem to have been long-lasting and characterised by affection, which is stressed in all the sources.

[John]

Anything on how Hephaistion might have felt about this Alexander/Bagoas thing?John

[Susan]

Alexander and Hephaestion both followed the usual pattern and moved on to younger partners. Hephaestion's favourite, Euius, a fluteplayer, was the cause of the quarrel with Eumenes ( Plutarch, Life of Eumenes). Athenaeus (Book 8, 602) refers to Alexander's interest in boys http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/athenaeus13.html Whilst there clearly was a hostile tradition to Alexander, I can't see that all of these references can be put down to that.

[John]

OK. I read from that link you posted, where Athenaeus says Alexander was madly devoted to boys. But all he can find to back up his statement is that same one incident where Alexander kissed this guy in the theater for winning a prize in song and dance, after the audience egged him on to do it. And in the next sentence, Athenaeus says Charon tried to get Alexander to kiss a pretty boy, but Alexander responded, "Not so! For that would not delight me so much as it will pain you."I'm still not sold.John

[Susan]

I think we will agree to differ on this.

[John]

One more point: This guy Bagoas who Alexander allegedly had a relationship with had no testicles; so I'm not even sure he was technically a male!John

[Sikander]

The presence of testicles is not the sole defining point of what constitutes a male- men injured in war, or through accident, who lose one or both testicles, are still males, still men.
Sexual identification is another factor. Human sexuality is far more complex than genitalia.
Also, it must not be assumed that because an historian says Alexander was "mad for boys" that he was sexually using them, though some sexual attraction/overtones may have come into play; there are many factors at work here.
Then too, Euios was not Hephaistion's lover; he was a flute player, true, who had come with the army from Pella. The word favourite does not always denote a sexual relationship. Hephaistion was unique in that he did not take other lovers- it was part of the reason there was conflict with others- he was not easily understood.
That said, words like "gay" or "straight" cannot be applied to this ancient culture; these are modern views and attitudes that hardly cover most people's sexual identities and behaviours even today. Sexual attraction and behaviour was much more fluid publicly than today; today it is just more regulated publicly, though studies on the sexual continuum support the ancient world view.. Homoeroticism *was* a powerful element in art, politics and friendships.
Some good texts to read include "The Reign of the Phallus" by Eva Keuls, Dover's work on Greek homosexuality, and "Before Sexuality" by Halpern, Winkler, Zeitlin. It seems to me the recurring focus on Alexander's sexuality and the arguments to support one side or the other reflect more our modern debate than the disinterested study of the past.
Regards,
Sikander

[John]

I think testosterone is important for "overcoming the witch." You can see people with low testostorone levels walking/talking like some woman. The whole woman trapped in a man's body thing - not enough testostorone to drive out the witch.God only knows how much testostorone Alexander needed in his war with Olympias. Can you imagine baby Alexander trapped alone with the terrible headstrong witch Olympias, while his father was away fighting wars, or whatever?And then Alexander meets Bagoas, a man who had his testicles cut off, left defenseless against any witch who might want to cast a spell on him. Maybe Alexander felt great sympathy for him - or maybe he wondered why he reacted so woman-like to his moves...John

[Sikander]

I have to disagree with you on most of these comments, John. You seem to be trying to define gender/sexes by social constructs of assigned behaviour/assigned roles (which vary incredibly culture by culture, and indeed, can even be opposite to another culture's).. sexuality, gender and sexual behaviours are not so easily and simply defined, as more and more studies are showing.
A man who is emasculated does not necessarily need "testosterone" to be a man, act like man, think like a man, etc, though some secondary sex characteristics will be affected. Nothing can be assumed about Bagoas regarding how "masculine" he acted, since too little is known about him in any way. Castration does not mean that a male then begins to "act like a woman" (yet another assumption about role/gender etc) in every case. Nor can anything really be known about the "boys" offered Alexander.
"Testosterone" is not a guarantee of being able to overcome anything; I would put more stock in the human mind and will, male or female, over hormones, anyday. Alexander had a powerful will, determination, a sense of his own destiny coupled with being a member of the royal clan,living in a culture that celebrated power and dominance, especially in the male.. he was, in effect, in the right form at the right time and place..
but the fact remains that the Greco-Makedonian view on sexuality was quite different from most views today, and less rigid.

[John]

Sikander,Well, you make some good points; without intelligence and wisdom, a man is just a beast.And thanks for sticking up for Hephaistion and the flute player. There DOES seem to be a distinct lack of homosexuality at Alexander's court - compared to Philip's (who Theopompus, who actually visited Philip's court, called a bunch of "man-whores"), and practically anywhere else in Greece at that time, it seems.John

[John]

...Speaking of "beast," that's what Alexander was afraid people would call him after he killed Cleitus (due to an overpowering rush of testosterone?)Perhaps this reaction was brought on by Alexander seeing something in Cleitus? Like Cleitus' sister, who Olympias left in charge of Alexander (as a nurse) when he was a todler? It almost reminds me of the Exorcist, when they almost kill the possessed victom, instead of driving out the evil possessor. - Of couse, the gender roles are reversed there...John

[Yiannis]

Well, I can see that the sexuality issue always creates much interest
I don't have much to add. This subject has been already discussed too many times and the conclusion is always the same:
- ATG was bisexual as were most Greeks of the time.
- Bisexualism as long as it was within the limits imposed by the city rules was not only accepted but required.
- Homosexuality was not accepted. Citizens were expected to have families and raize children.
- The relationship between male lovers was (a lot more) than sex. Actually that was almost seremonial. It was about teaching the youngster about life and the right way to live it. A "lover" would be best than a father to teach because the boy would be more honest to him and could discuss things that he would not with hius father etc...

[Susan]

I apologise for my inaccuracy in assuming that the word 'favourite' implied a sexual relationship, I did not intend to use inaccurate references but this is the meaning that I have come across in most contexts.Regards
Susan

[marcus]

Robert,I hope I never gave an impression that I "don't like you" - it would be a bit unfair as I don't even know you! Personally, I don't think there was anything wrong with your post - but, just to put it in context, we have had a lot of silly, one line comments on this forum that we can well do without; so I suppose your original post might have put a few people's backs up.I don't have the time to get into the business of whether Alexander was "proved to be gay". I don't want to get into that old chestnut, for many reasons - have a look at the section on his sexuality in the Information section! However, that certainly shouldn't stop people from viewing him as a gay hero - if people identify with Alexander, for whatever reason, and use that identification for good ends then it's admirable.All the bestMarcus

[Sikander]

Greetings John- Well, before you thank me too much, you should know that I have views of Alexander's court that probably differ from yours a bit...I think we covered this quite some time ago in the Forum.
That said, I tend to feel that acceptable sexual behaviours were far less rigid then, than now- and I also think people were probably a lot healthier, mentally and emotionally, for it, for the most part.
Ah well, must not get too far off topic!
Regards,
Sikander