don't use the word gay or bi

[blackajax1]

I hate this topic since so many peope want to
deny Alexander's sexuality and so many gays
want to claim him as one of their own. The
bottom line is different culture, different world.
The Greeks has more tolerance and a
completely different view on sexuality than
boxing people into categories of homo, hetero
and bi-sexual

[S]

Greetings Black Ajax,Frankly, I object to the use of *any* labels, whether gay, bi *or* straight (the assumption that straight is "normal" presumes a h**l of a lot about human cultural and sexual norms, all of which are untrue- the most that can be said is it is a culturally imposed norm). These are labels used in this century and the whole argument for or against one or the other is usually tied into far too much "religion-based" arguments focusing far too much on sexuality. My personal take is 1) morality has nothing to do with sexuality except in terms of whether it is used to harm or hold power over another as in incest, paedophilia or other forms of control and power, 2)those who are repulsed by variant forms of sexuality today would probably find Alexander hard to tolerate if they met him tomorrow and 3) these arguments come up on every forum and it would be refreshing to have everyone set aside personal feelings and do a bit more study on the continuum, Jeanne's article, Dover's book, The Cut Sleeve, Biological Exuberance, Boswell's books, Phar's books and about a thousand other studies before setting out to comment. It simply is not relevant what a person *feels* about the idea of same-gender sexuality (which, by the way, is a *tiny* aspect of same-gender relationships and lives- we do not define heterosexual lives by their sexual activity, and should cease doing so with gays); what *is* relevant is the cultural mores and attitudes of Alexander's world- and it is undeniable that those were flexible.Regards,
Sikander

[Linda]

Hi Black AjaxI would agree that people should not be boxed into categories. However, if you read Phaedo by Plato, he does describe people in terms of who they love. He doesn't say that people have to live one way of life, but merely describes the twin soul and how one half searches for the other, and the treatise is about love. So, in 4th century BC, they had more honesty to say how things are than many people do now. Sikander, I am not sure about the exact placings of the majority of individuals on the continuum - I do believe most people have a preference one way or the other, but that is not absolute or necessarily predetermined. If John's post had said gay bi or straight, I'd be happier. And in reference to John's post, further down, Sikander's reply is perfect. I couldn't add anything more. This doesn't need to be bad-tempered, but it needs to be informed. No-one is insulting anyone by speculating on A's sexuality (again), and I think there are some interesting issues raised about how we perceive ancient attitudes to sexuality. Not to everyone, of course, but to some.

[ruthaki]

I tend to agree with you 100%. The same goes for the lyric poet Sappho. All the gay women of the world beat a path to her hometown, Eressos, on the island of Lesbos. "Lesbian" was a term coined in the 1800's for women who love women and it comes from the island's name. In fact, Sappho, like Alexander was inclined to either men or women and the girls at her 'school' who she was said to 'love' were really little girls 10 - 14 who were sent there by their parents to learn the art of love before marriage. It gave them a better bride price. Sappho herself had a daughter and a couple of men lovers. Her poems, of course, are beautiful, perhaps even erotic. But what's wrong with loving another person of your own sex? It doesn't necessarily put you into the catagory of being "gay". Hepahestion was Alexander's alter-ego. They loved and respected each other. Whether it crossed other boundries, who knows?

[Linda]

Some of Sappho's poems about sexual love and desire - one woman for another. I don't think in this case that it matters much what her life was - it is what she articulated that strikes a chord with gay women, and others. There is nothing wrong with loving people from the same sex, sexually and non sexually, but platonic love is not what Sappho was talking about in most of her poems.

[ruthaki]

Yes, what Susan says is correct. However again we must not put our modern morality on to these people. The women of Lesbos were known to have been far more 'liberated' than the mainland Greeks. So when Sappho had her girl's school (House of the Muses) it raised a few eyebrows and she was especially slandered by her rivals. And, of course when Christianity came to greece her work was considered to be what we would now call 'pornographic' rather than just 'erotic' and that's why so much of it was destroyed.

[chris]

HiThe interesting point is who ATG loved in his life -forget the labels. There seems little doubt who was the love of his life.Chris

[jan]

Hi Ajax,This is like some psychological test, only proving that each and every person will project his own belief onto a subject for which there is no definitive answer as love, sex, and passion are not at all the same.There is little doubt that this subject is misunderstood and unknown. So it remains a mystery.