I Just Invented a Proverb

[kenny]

Hail Companions About Kings leaders, Alexander The Great and War.If Any or the Kings Prime Ministers and Presidents had to fight, Then I say there would be no war.If Bin Laden, Adolf Hitler,Pol Pott,Hirohitto,Mussolinni,Queen Elizabeth the 11 etc had to fight The Would Be No Wars.RegardsKenny

[susan]

What has this to do with Alexander ? This seems like politicising this forum, which is not meant to happen.In the same way that we try to get people to ignore the current Greek/Macedonian debates, I think we should try to ignore current political & soical situations unless useful lessons can be learnt from Alexander's time. And, it was not a golden age then, by any means.What does anyone else think - if everyone's happy with the forum as it is, I'll go back into my shell.
Susan

[heinrich]

Maybe you're a bit too harsh, dear Susan. Kenny is, to some extent, right: there's much to hate about Alexander, but at least we can say about him that he did not just order others to do the dirty work, but took a share. Persian, Greek and Macedonian warfare implied risks for those who had decided to go to war.This raises interesting questions; for better or worse, no modern world leader will inspire so much loyalty as Alexander did. I wonder what would have happened if McCain had been elected president of the USA instead of Bush. I think that McCain would not have gone to war in Iraq as lightheartedly as Bush did, because McCain understood what war means, and if McCain had gone to war, the US would have better trusted their commander in chief.As far as I am concerned, this is a lesson we can still learn from Alexander: leaders must know what they are doing.Kenny: I will not defend Hitler, but he was a war hero who had received the Iron Cross, which is comparable to a British Victoria Cross. Unlike Bush and Bin Laden, when Hitler sent his nation to war, he knew what he was doing. He was not crazy, I guess, but he came close to it.HM

[amyntoros]

I have a problem with the thread and that wonGÇÖt come as a surprise to anyone here. I wasnGÇÖt going to say anything as IGÇÖm becoming a bit tired of sticking my neck out only to get it chopped off, but someone has to speak up. I sincerely mean no offence, Heinrich, but you have demonstrated what happens with this kind of thread. Although Alexander is tentatively the subject matter, the debate turns instead to modern politics. There are a myriad of websites and forums where politics can be discussed openly and I donGÇÖt feel it is necessary to bring this to Pothos. Admittedly, there are those such as yourself who keep the conversation civilized, but some posts are positively confrontational, as in an earlier thread which talks of GÇ£American ImperialismGÇ¥ and the GÇ£illusionary American dreamer.GÇ¥ (IGÇÖm not American by the way GÇô one doesnGÇÖt have to be nationalistic to find it disturbing.)Does no one else have a comment? A while ago, to my great surprise, when a Pothosian expressed concern for any London members who might have been injured in the London bombings there was a flurry of posts dismissing it as GÇ£politicalGÇ¥ and demanding its removal. Best regards,Amyntoros

[beausefaless]

Deleted

[Nicator]

...well, Kenny, it looks like you stepped onto a landmine with that one. I'd prefer if you kept it closer to the bone in the future. nuff said, later Nicator

[kenny]

Oh DearA website dedicated to Alexander a guy of bravado hindsite and the energy to change the world/Yet we have porthonians with a morbid fear of debate.Indeed it is relevent to compare Alexander his kingship etc to the leaders and policies today. How many time has Alexander been likened to Alexander with no hint of complaint. I stand with a viewpoint and indeed a viewpoint that is valid and if Porthonians cant cope with it. What would Alexander say.Tut Tut I guess

[kenny]

Hail Hienrich, Request anyone in Pothos with a backbone please stand up?

[amyntoros]

No fear of debate here, Kenny. Examine the archives and you will find that statement is laughable. I simply expect the debate on a forum dedicated to Alexander the Great to be ABOUT Alexander and his times and not "Bin Laden, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pott, Hirohitto, Mussolinni, and Queen Elizabeth II."As for what Alexander would say - he would expect any talk of his abilities and achievements to stay focused on those attributes and not digress into a discussion of the attributes of others. Alexander wasn't much given to having himself compared with anyone else, unless they were gods, that is. He believed that he was the best and expected everyone else to feel the same. He wouldn't have seen any need for discussion.Best regards,Amyntoros

[beausefaless]

Deleted

[kenny]

Linda Hail
My Post has everything to do with Alexander. ITs not wrong to compare todays strife with Alexander as Every critic thrown at Alexander is based on the thoughts of today.The atrocities.the masacres are worked upon by todays standards and morals.Even Alexanders sexuality is put into the context of todays society so leave it alone.I know there are peoople here wanting this thread deleted it does not offend anyone direct and all that I have said is rock solid fact. I challenge any Porthonians to prove it differently then its good to scarp it.Its wrong you say Alexander never compared himself to anyone other than gods. He was always chasing His Fathers Darius and Achiles ghosts and I am pretty sure he would have an opinion of the showers that have showed so called leadership ever since. I stand by what I say and say if Porthonians are not up to mature proper debate maybe look in a web site under magic roundabout.There you will not have your lives upset.

[marcus]

I won't get involved in the other argument that seems to have started here - my own feelings about whether this is a legitimate discussion are irrelevant. Of course, I am now possibly going to get into the "non-Alexander" side of the debate.While what you say is admirable, Kenny, can we consider this: Alexander fought, as did Philip, Epaminondas, Pelopidas, Leonidas, etc. etc. etc. By your reasoning, why has there been thousands of years of warfare in the first place? There are myriad reasons why people go to war, some of which are deemed, within the cultural, political, social and religious climate of the time, to be perfectly good and legitimate reasons. One might argue that Alexander had far *less* reason to go to war than the Greeks of previous generations, yet he did. The realities of war were no less ghastly than in the 20th century ... so I just find the reasoning behind your proverb difficult to understand.All the bestMarcus

[kenny]

Marcus HailAnd spot on. I am not arguing or debating wars and the reasons and climates for them.My argument and comparisons to Alexander is kingship leadership etc. We indeed know Alexander was a war advocate but at the same time bears the risk with those he expects to die.In total opposition over the histories the leaders and rulers do not yet make the wars that your children brothers etc will die for there causes.All my quote said was if these leaders families etc were called to fight then there would be in my mind no wars or therewould be a lot less.Example were George Bush Asked to lead an attack in Iraq would there be war?
Its said that this has nothing to do with Alexander well if we cant compare to as you say an advocate of war yet a noble war monger then we get further to big brother.

[heinrich]

No offense taken, dear Amyntoros, as no offense was meant. I hope we can agree to disagree on this point. I think that comparisons are not only justified but also necessary; even if we do not study the past to learn from it -it is perfectly okay to just enjoy the meeting with the past- our questions originate in the present, and we are always implicitly making comparisons. It seems that the latest book by Frank Holt ( http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2005/2005-08-35.html ) focuses on comparison between Afghanistan then and now.HM

[amyntoros]

***Its wrong you say Alexander never compared himself to anyone other than gods. He was always chasing His Fathers Darius and Achiles ghosts***Actually, your original remark wasn't about who Alexander supposedly emulated but about what Alexander would say in response to "other people" comparing him to others. Anyway, I've never stopped for one moment to wonder whether Alexander would approve of what I'm saying. There's nothing he can do about it now, which is just as well. Look what happened to Cleitus when he decided to compare the father and son!!! ***if Porthonians are not up to mature proper debate maybe look in a web site under magic roundabout***Ah, Kenny - can't seem to stay focused and avoid the personal remarks, huh? Well, just this once I'm going to respond directly to a cheap shot. I remember the Magic Roundabout - a five-minute fantasy show for children just before the six o'clock news so many adults caught it too. No, I don't think so. Why, if I want to read "fantasy" on the web I can find it right here, right now, on this very Pothos forum.***There you will not have your lives upset.***You, of course, have never been upset by something said about Alexander on this forum . . . Is this the kind of "mature" debate you're looking for, Kenny? It's in all of us you know. Most of us, however, choose to avoid parading it on a public forum. So I slipped this once and let it out. Ah well. . .Amyntoros