Astronomical Diaries-Babylon
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Astronomical Diaries-Babylon
I am very interested in the Astronomical Diaries. Can someone please tell me where i can get my hands on articles by Bert van der Spek.
Re: Astronomical Diaries-Babylon
Hi Aspasia,
Jona Lendering's site.
If you contact Jona, he will, I am sure, be able to give you more info on Bert's work.
ATB
I don't know about Bert's articles, but you will find some good information on the Astronomical Diaries at:Aspasia wrote:I am very interested in the Astronomical Diaries. Can someone please tell me where i can get my hands on articles by Bert van der Spek.
Jona Lendering's site.
If you contact Jona, he will, I am sure, be able to give you more info on Bert's work.
ATB
Thanks Marcus!! I think i have come across some other articles by Jona (Im very embarassed to admit i thought Jona was female). I'm very new to the whole Alexander area!!! I find the topic Astrological Diaries very fascinating (and similar Oriental sources) These sourcs have revealed some interesting info re Alex and friends. And there are more to be translated and published! I will deffinately look up Jona's site.
G'day Aspasia.
I know only of Jona's site as well as far as decent information goes.
There is good discussion of the "Diaries" and their relationship to the dating of events (and the nature of those events) in the immediate post Alexander period - particularly the rise of Seleucus and events involved in the Antigonid/Seleucid wars 312 - 308 - in Bosworth's " The Legacy of Alexander: Politics, Warfare, and Propaganda Under the Successors"
I know only of Jona's site as well as far as decent information goes.
There is good discussion of the "Diaries" and their relationship to the dating of events (and the nature of those events) in the immediate post Alexander period - particularly the rise of Seleucus and events involved in the Antigonid/Seleucid wars 312 - 308 - in Bosworth's " The Legacy of Alexander: Politics, Warfare, and Propaganda Under the Successors"
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
G'day Paralus,Have you read Bosworths "The Legacy.."??? I'm suprised there's not more info out there on the Astronomical Diaries! I have to do more research. I think texts relating to these sources have revealed very important info, re Guagamela and the date of Alexanders death among other things. And to think that there are still thousands of tablets to be translated. Where do i sign up for my ancient Babylonian classes
In relation to the Successor Wars...How did Alexander manage to keep these guys under control????
G'day all over again Aspasia!
Yes I have read Bosworth's "Legacy" - a couple of times. It is a foretaste of a larger work (in progress) on the Diadochoi - something for which I endure much impatience.
From what I've read, the tablets have suffered from the endemic bias to Greek sources on the era. This is, of course, not overly surprising because the extant material (numismatic, inscription and especially literature) is alomst entirely Greek. The inbuilt bias is therefore to the Greek - especially written (Arrian et al) - version of the time. As well, they were the "winner" and hence get to write the story.
All of which is not to claim that they are entirely wrong - far from it. The problem is that when other sources (outside the these) provide material that challenge the "Greek/Macedonian" version they seem to be invariably dismissed. I believe the Babylonian Diaries have suffered due to this. And yes, the "Diaries" indeed supply some food for thought over Gaugamela, not least of which is the Persian army deserting Darius rather than the other way 'round.
"Legacy", as I've noted, has a good discussion on the tablets and what they've to say about the chronology of events after Alexander's death and the wars between Antigonus and Seleucas (amonst other events). Indeed, the chronology Bosworth arrives at via the help of the tablets makes considerable sense - in almost all respects. Would be lovely to have the rest translated, no? Unfortunately there exists much - funnily enough - astronomical and meteorological "priestly" type information as well as the juicy bits.
How did Alexander keep a lid on these marshalls? Some he killed, some were killed and the others - were they to step out of line - would likely have followed them. Those who refused to cease "bitching" were - like children - separated and given tasks to keep them apart and under control. Hence Craterus going one way from India and Heaphaestion another. Also, after the return, Craterus being dispatched to Macedonia as viceroy. Poor old Antipater was to come to court in Asia and be a good boy under "Court arrest".
Which, of course, reads a little harshy. Flippantly might be better. I'm sure Alexander's generals (Parmenion aside?) began by near idolising him. That changed over time. By the time of his last months in Babylon, those scales had fallen from their eyes - and about as fast as a barometer prior to a thunderstorm
Yes I have read Bosworth's "Legacy" - a couple of times. It is a foretaste of a larger work (in progress) on the Diadochoi - something for which I endure much impatience.
From what I've read, the tablets have suffered from the endemic bias to Greek sources on the era. This is, of course, not overly surprising because the extant material (numismatic, inscription and especially literature) is alomst entirely Greek. The inbuilt bias is therefore to the Greek - especially written (Arrian et al) - version of the time. As well, they were the "winner" and hence get to write the story.
All of which is not to claim that they are entirely wrong - far from it. The problem is that when other sources (outside the these) provide material that challenge the "Greek/Macedonian" version they seem to be invariably dismissed. I believe the Babylonian Diaries have suffered due to this. And yes, the "Diaries" indeed supply some food for thought over Gaugamela, not least of which is the Persian army deserting Darius rather than the other way 'round.
"Legacy", as I've noted, has a good discussion on the tablets and what they've to say about the chronology of events after Alexander's death and the wars between Antigonus and Seleucas (amonst other events). Indeed, the chronology Bosworth arrives at via the help of the tablets makes considerable sense - in almost all respects. Would be lovely to have the rest translated, no? Unfortunately there exists much - funnily enough - astronomical and meteorological "priestly" type information as well as the juicy bits.
How did Alexander keep a lid on these marshalls? Some he killed, some were killed and the others - were they to step out of line - would likely have followed them. Those who refused to cease "bitching" were - like children - separated and given tasks to keep them apart and under control. Hence Craterus going one way from India and Heaphaestion another. Also, after the return, Craterus being dispatched to Macedonia as viceroy. Poor old Antipater was to come to court in Asia and be a good boy under "Court arrest".
Which, of course, reads a little harshy. Flippantly might be better. I'm sure Alexander's generals (Parmenion aside?) began by near idolising him. That changed over time. By the time of his last months in Babylon, those scales had fallen from their eyes - and about as fast as a barometer prior to a thunderstorm
Last edited by Paralus on Tue May 02, 2006 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Totally agree with your analysis re "Diaries". And your naughty children analogy- very good. Very true, the winner gets to write their version of events. eg Guagamela. How would the Chaldeans have interpreted a Darius win!?? But amongst all the spin must run some truth. A core of reality. But we have such a lack of real primary sources, thats why the "Diaries" are so tantalising. They could verify, dispute, give another view etc...Handling the tablets
Several of us Pothosians went to the British Museum last year with Jona to see and touch the tablets. It was quite thrilling ! I think that there's a lot more that can be speculated, but is unlikely to appear in print until it can be proven. If they could just use some computer-matching techniques to identify the missing parts of broken tablets, there would be a lot more information available.
Susan
Susan
Makes one wonder at the damage the current Misadventure in Mesopotamia has done to that which may yet survive. Not to mention that which was stored in Baghdad.
Countless centuries of countless conflicts have witnessed the conquering armies of all empires - or aspirants to such - and the concomitant destruction of much of what defined (and recorded) Persian/Mesopotamian history.
Many a time I have wondered at what was lost in the burning(s) of the "library" of Alexandria and its warehouses. As I have written here before, it brings to mind Connery's William of Baskerville in the "Name of The Rose" calling to his postulant to "save the books Adso, the books!" as the monastery's library is consumed.
Consider the following then from Diodorus (17.20-22 abr.)
"As for Persepolis, the capital of the Persian Empire, Alexander described it to the Macedonians as their worst enemy among the cities of Asia, and he gave it over to the soldiers to plunder, with the exception of the royal palace.
"It was the wealthiest city under the sun and the private houses had been filled for a long time with riches of every kind. The Macedonians rushed into it, killing all the men and plundering the houses, which were numerous and full of furniture and precious objects of every kind. Here much silver was carried off and no little gold, and many expensive dresses, embroidered with purple or with gold, fell as prizes to the victors...
"As Persepolis had surpassed all other cities in prosperity, so she now exceeded them in misfortune.
"Alexander went up to the citadel and took possession of the treasures stored there. They were full of gold and silver, with the accumulation of revenue from Cyrus, the first king of the Persians, down to that time. Reckoning gold in terms of silver, 2,500 tons were found there. Alexander wanted to take part of the money with him, for the expenses of war and to deposit the rest at Susa under close guard. From Babylon, Mesopotamia and Susa, he sent for a crowd of mules, partly pack and partly draught animals, as well as 3,000 pack camels, and with these he had all the treasure conveyed to the chosen places. He was very hostile to the local people and did not trust them, and wished to destroy Persepolis utterly. [...]"
It is well to note that "cultural items" are not listed on the manifest as treasures. One would think it unlikely that precious mules were diverted from gold and silver carrying to the mundane task of ferrying clay or papyrus records. Records detailing GÇô in barbarian babble GÇô the doings of weak, effeminate inferiors so recently chased from the field.
This then was the fate of the capital of the Persian Empire. The city which was its administrative (and likely cultural) centre. Even given the wide distribution - and security GÇô of information and records today, imagine such a catastrophe befalling Washington.
One might wonder, as I do about Alexandria, just what this act of cultural bigotry and military bastardry may have cost history.
Countless centuries of countless conflicts have witnessed the conquering armies of all empires - or aspirants to such - and the concomitant destruction of much of what defined (and recorded) Persian/Mesopotamian history.
Many a time I have wondered at what was lost in the burning(s) of the "library" of Alexandria and its warehouses. As I have written here before, it brings to mind Connery's William of Baskerville in the "Name of The Rose" calling to his postulant to "save the books Adso, the books!" as the monastery's library is consumed.
Consider the following then from Diodorus (17.20-22 abr.)
"As for Persepolis, the capital of the Persian Empire, Alexander described it to the Macedonians as their worst enemy among the cities of Asia, and he gave it over to the soldiers to plunder, with the exception of the royal palace.
"It was the wealthiest city under the sun and the private houses had been filled for a long time with riches of every kind. The Macedonians rushed into it, killing all the men and plundering the houses, which were numerous and full of furniture and precious objects of every kind. Here much silver was carried off and no little gold, and many expensive dresses, embroidered with purple or with gold, fell as prizes to the victors...
"As Persepolis had surpassed all other cities in prosperity, so she now exceeded them in misfortune.
"Alexander went up to the citadel and took possession of the treasures stored there. They were full of gold and silver, with the accumulation of revenue from Cyrus, the first king of the Persians, down to that time. Reckoning gold in terms of silver, 2,500 tons were found there. Alexander wanted to take part of the money with him, for the expenses of war and to deposit the rest at Susa under close guard. From Babylon, Mesopotamia and Susa, he sent for a crowd of mules, partly pack and partly draught animals, as well as 3,000 pack camels, and with these he had all the treasure conveyed to the chosen places. He was very hostile to the local people and did not trust them, and wished to destroy Persepolis utterly. [...]"
It is well to note that "cultural items" are not listed on the manifest as treasures. One would think it unlikely that precious mules were diverted from gold and silver carrying to the mundane task of ferrying clay or papyrus records. Records detailing GÇô in barbarian babble GÇô the doings of weak, effeminate inferiors so recently chased from the field.
This then was the fate of the capital of the Persian Empire. The city which was its administrative (and likely cultural) centre. Even given the wide distribution - and security GÇô of information and records today, imagine such a catastrophe befalling Washington.
One might wonder, as I do about Alexandria, just what this act of cultural bigotry and military bastardry may have cost history.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.
Academia.edu
The Mesopotamian Misadventure is a very awful thing to contemplate!! Some of the things i have read about, that have occured in and around the ancient site of Babylon, are appalling. I cant remember where i read it, but apparently this area is no longer World Heritage Listed. Who cares its only a bunch of old rocks!!! They dont need protecting!
I have often wondered what was destroyed in the fire at Alexandria. What treasures of information it held. Now THAT is very painful to think about...What it cost history?Knowledge for one thing. All that learning and ideas, gone. I think it set history back quite a bit. We dont know what was destroyed. If we look at the work of people we do know- lets say Einstein. (or whoever youd like to choose). What would happen if his ideas, findings etc were destroyed and never passed on. Yes, theyd come about again eventually, but after how long? So what was lost in Alexandria!!!
Maybe thats where Alexander was finally placed?!
I have often wondered what was destroyed in the fire at Alexandria. What treasures of information it held. Now THAT is very painful to think about...What it cost history?Knowledge for one thing. All that learning and ideas, gone. I think it set history back quite a bit. We dont know what was destroyed. If we look at the work of people we do know- lets say Einstein. (or whoever youd like to choose). What would happen if his ideas, findings etc were destroyed and never passed on. Yes, theyd come about again eventually, but after how long? So what was lost in Alexandria!!!
Maybe thats where Alexander was finally placed?!
Hello,
I know that this topic has been there for quite a while and "done the rounds" but it has just caught my eye.
I was enjoying Michael Wood's "in the footsteps of Alexander"- this is my Alexander volume for the month and have got to the part after Gaugamela, the entrance into Babylon--rose petals and all- Callisthenes is occupied in "intellectual" pursuits- enquiring about the astronomical diaries.
The odd detail that is mentioned says that the priests tell Callisthenes that the diaries date back 30000 years- seems quite unbelievable- but anyway, the info that comes out is very laconic- just three or four word sentences- "some were deprived"for example with nothing more- so we are left to wonder if it were of "office" or " of life"-
also that Alexander ordered no one to enter the buildings- again leaving us wondering if it refers to the temples or maybe buildings where wealth was to be found.
Whilst on the subject, Babylon was sacked by Xerxes- it is mentioned that Alexander offered to rebuild the Esagila- although Wood mentions that the levelling of the Esagila by the Persians was false- he doesn't say why he thinks it is false- any guesses? anti Persian propoganda?
Just seen a picture on the LIvius site of the Ishtar Gate and it is absolutely gorgeous with its heraldic animals against a blue backdrop.
http://www.livius.org/a/1/mesopotamia/ishtargate.JPG
enjoy!!!!
Best regards,
Dean.
[/url]
I know that this topic has been there for quite a while and "done the rounds" but it has just caught my eye.
I was enjoying Michael Wood's "in the footsteps of Alexander"- this is my Alexander volume for the month and have got to the part after Gaugamela, the entrance into Babylon--rose petals and all- Callisthenes is occupied in "intellectual" pursuits- enquiring about the astronomical diaries.
The odd detail that is mentioned says that the priests tell Callisthenes that the diaries date back 30000 years- seems quite unbelievable- but anyway, the info that comes out is very laconic- just three or four word sentences- "some were deprived"for example with nothing more- so we are left to wonder if it were of "office" or " of life"-
also that Alexander ordered no one to enter the buildings- again leaving us wondering if it refers to the temples or maybe buildings where wealth was to be found.
Whilst on the subject, Babylon was sacked by Xerxes- it is mentioned that Alexander offered to rebuild the Esagila- although Wood mentions that the levelling of the Esagila by the Persians was false- he doesn't say why he thinks it is false- any guesses? anti Persian propoganda?
Just seen a picture on the LIvius site of the Ishtar Gate and it is absolutely gorgeous with its heraldic animals against a blue backdrop.
http://www.livius.org/a/1/mesopotamia/ishtargate.JPG
enjoy!!!!
Best regards,
Dean.
[/url]
carpe diem