Amyntoros wrote:
I would suggest that the only people interested are those "interested in the minutiae" of the subject. If one is going to take the trouble of examining a chart (such as the one you presented) in order to understand your proposition, then that person is more than a "general reader" of the subject, in my opinion.
I disagree. I take the view that the general, non-specialist, reader on this thread neither needs nor wants to plough through all 16 pages and 145,000 words, especially when everything relevant to this thread and a brief description of hoplite battle mechanics is contained on page 1. Nor is it correct to refer to "your proposition"(sic) - it has been around for over 40 years (perhaps much longer) and was not mine at all. I first became aware of it circa 1970 in the works of J.K.Anderson, and the facts of Xenophon's descriptions have been widely accepted ever since then, if not earlier. I don't know of any serious disagreement, and if you take the trouble to read page 1, you'll see that Agesilaos and I were in broad agreement as to the basic nature of what Xenophon of Athens wrote.
Amyntoros wrote:
Xenophon wrote:
The only alternative to the formation and drill shown above was put forward by the late Agesilaos, and his version proved to be impractical, in fact all but impossible.[ see page 1]
You should add your own "in my opinion" here. The fact that the Taktike thread is 16 pages long should be enough for anyone to see that Agesilaos did not agree with your statement above, hence the debate and the "hairsplitting" which Agesilaos certainly felt was relative.
Firstly, as I have just pointed out, it is not just an 'opinion', but widely accepted as fact, especially by experts in the admittedly small world of the subject. Moreover, even if it was only 'opinion', not all opinions are equal. I have considerable military experience, including drill in detail. Agesilaos, as was evident from his suggested mechanics, had never experienced drill in his life, otherwise he would have readily appreciated why his suggested mechanics were impractical in real life, and in fact all but physically impossible (whole units deploying on the flanks of other whole units in a mile long phalanx line). [see my post page 1 June 13 2014] He did in fact come to realise this for on page 2, his post of June 28 2014 he wrote:
I hold my hands up to getting the organisation of Xenophon’s fantasy files wrong
Furthermore, only the first page and maybe the second relate to classical hoplites, as being discussed in this thread - the remaining 14-15 pages have no relevance to the subject, as you would be aware if you troubled to read them all. And it was saving other readers time and effort that prompted me to summarise the relevant parts of that long thread - though of course those interested might decide to read more..
He can no longer defend his version from being called "impractical, in fact all but impossible" so if anyone is really interested in Macedonian drills I also suggest that they visit the Taktike thread and form their own opinion, although if anyone new to the subject has the wish to discuss this further I suggest they start a new thread to put forth their own views.
Paralus wrote:
As Amyntoros has said, the above was challenged over many pages on the Taktike thread. Regardless of how one might choose to describe a discussion of the correct meaning / usage of ancient Greek words, anyone interested enough might make their own mind up on Agesilaos' position (and Xenophon's) by reading that thread. One protagonist saving people 'the trouble' by presenting both his theory and the argument against it being "impractical" or "impossible" as 'fact' on this thread is a tad rich.
I regard that accusation - which is utterly untrue anyway - as despicable. It is Amyntoros and Paralus who misrepresent Agesilaos' position on the matter of Xenophon of Athens drills and the use of files and half-files, through careless misreading. Agesilaos and I were actually in agreement on the matter.
Firstly, I have not re-opened some imaginary 'posthumous' debate, merely summarised what was written two years ago, using exactly the same words as previously written (from page 1 of that thread). Agesilaos had ample opportunity, and did, respond. Summarising a two year old thread is not the same as re-opening the subject.
Secondly, as I mentioned , Macedonian/Hellenistic formations and drills were never discussed in detail, so reading the whole thread for that purpose would be futile.
Thirdly - and most importantly -Agesilaos did not disagree with hoplites forming in files and half-files - Xenophon of Athens words are plain enough. He simply devised a different drill to achieve this, which he later acknowledged was wrong. ( see above and p.2 'Taktike' thread ). There was no 'debate' on the use of files and half-files, as can be seen from his diagram and comments. Hoplite drills using files and half-files was NOT "challenged over many pages",contra Paralus and Amyntoros. They are quite wrong on that score - and demonstrating the dangers of not getting their facts straight before making false accusations of a deeply offensive nature.
I feel apologies would not be amiss.