Queries on the Iliad.

[dean]

Queries on The Iliad.Have been researching the Iliad to understand Alexander's fascination/reverence for Homer's epic and although my initial goal has not really been satisfied I nevertheless discovered the following oddities which I want to share.1- The Number 12 appears as almost the common denominator in any period of time in the Iliad that is stipulated and seems to be Homer's favorite number.
For example,
-Thetis must wait 12 days for Zeus to return from celebrations in Ethiopia to plead help for her son.
-Achilleus drags the body of Hektor around the tomb of Patroklus at dawn for twelve successive days.
-Priam asks for 12 days to grieve and give proper funeral rites to his son, Hektor.
-12 Trojan children are given by Achilleus as human sacrifice to the pyre of Patroklus.Is it because there were 12 major Olympian gods?2- My biggest insight was regarding the similitude between Priam's son, Paris seducing/abducting Helen from Sparta and Atreus' son, Agamemnon snatching Bris+½is from Achilleus' tent- for me justifying the rage Achilleus felt and his subsequent disastrous withdrawal from the war.3- The enigma of Helen being abducted a whole ten years before the Trojan war begins, making one wonder if she really was the reason for the war?I would appreciate your insights on the book or about what I have just written to help me strengthen my understanding + is it true that no proof whatsoever exists that the war actually took place?
Best regards, Dean.
P.S. I have sketched my own synopsis of the book and wonder if it would have any place in your book review section?

[S]

Greetings! Of course your synopsis would have aplace on the book review page! We welcome all opinions.
Send to philoalexandros@hotmail.com and the editor will add it. Also, remember that each person is invited to send in a brief bio for the reviewer's listing. Not everyone does but it is a nice opportunity to introduce yourself to the Pothos members.
Regards,
Sikander

[jan]

This is very interesting, Dean, as I am reading a book which uses excerpts from the Iliad throughout while sketching the history of Alexander. It is called Alexander, the Invisible Enemy, and is written by John Maxwell O'Brien. You might enjoy it.I appreciate your interest in numbers as it struck me when I read that Alexander was number 13 in the Roman Olympiad of Gods.

[Tre]

Dean, have you read the introduction by Knox in nice personles translation? It is well worth the read.

[dean]

Hello,Thanks Janet- as you say, Alexander would have been number 13.And I am pleased that you mentioned the book "The invisible Enemy" because it just happens that the other day was reading an extract from O'Brien's writing. He stated, to my amazement, that Hephaestion died of alcohol poisoning and that Alexander was going the same way.I have read Renault and Manfredi's work regarding this and had accepted the general idea that Hephaestion had died of some kind of acute indigestion. I had to ask myself if a professor of history, an academic from the pantheon of the gods so to speak, had lost the plot a bit regarding his subject matter(alcohol, Dionysus etc). But I haven't read the book so I can't really say.
I mean that it is so contradictive of Plutarch who would have us believe that he stayed around at parties just for the chat.I don't know how O'Brien ties the Iliad into his analysis but I must say that I am intrigued- maybe you could let me know. Renault seems to also state that certain behaviour patterns came out in Alexander that were very similiar to those shown in the Iliad characters, above all Achilleus.Take for example the withdrawal in his tent at Opis.And Tre and Sikander thankyou both for your replies.Best regards,
Dean.

[jorgios]

Actually, the war didnt begin ten years after Helen was abducted if i am not mistaken, but in fact the Illiad begins 10 years into the Trojan War, after both the Greeks and Trojans are tired of fighting.You are however correct in assuming that the Trojan War started for reasons other than the Spartan princess's kidnapping. Troy had grown rich as the most powerful trading city in the Aegean. It also controlled all access to the Black Sea. Historians believe that if this war really happened, it happened over trade and the Black Sea.Regard,
Jorge

[marcus]

Hi Dean,We had been having a bit of a pop at O'Brien's book a while back, and O'Brien did us the honour of writing us a note explaining what he was all about. Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly what he said, but it is probably fair to say that O'Brien offers, in "The Inivisible Enemy", an interpretation of Alexander's life, tied in to the recurring theme of alcohol. Historiographically, it would be very unwise to find fault with this on the basis that it is at odds with anything in Plutarch.The use of the Iliad is obvious, in my book. Macedonia in the 4th century has been described by many as being very 'Homeric', culturally, and Alexander's intense identification with Achilles, and his fairly obvious fascination with the heroic ideal portrayed in Homer, makes it very appropriate to find suitable quotations to support the text of the book.All the bestMarcus

[dean]

Hello,Jorge, in the last page or so of the Iliad, there follow a sequence of laments dedicated to Hektor, first, Hekabe, then Andromache, then Helen.
It is in the lament of Helen that she states that it is her twentieth year in Troy.
At the moment when she says that, the war is in its tenth year meaning, if my maths if right, that she was abducted a full 10 years before the war began.I have read that Agamemnon rallied 137,000 men to go to the war and that must have taken time.
Also during the preceding ten years of the war there were also embassies that went to Troy to ask for Helen back as we can see in third chapter of the Iliad. There is a fight between Paris and Menelaos and she states that it was Menelaos and Odysseus who visited Troy several years previously, presumably to negotiate her return.And Marcus, regarding my comment about Plutarch's defence of Alexander's drinking,
I realise that Plutarch was using Alexander to construct a moral example so he was bound to tone down any drunkenness that could have got in the way of his purpose.As I say I haven't read the book "The Invisible Friend" so I can't honestly form an opinion- the angle just seemed a little unusual and my apologies to Mr O'Brien if I
seemed to be taking it a little light-heartedly. I must read it. I think on the forum I remember someone saying that Macedonians at this period of time were decidely Dionysian. By the way I think that O'Brian also uses Euripides "Bacchae" too to describe Alexander as the tragic hero more in line with Pentheus than Achilleus.Best wishes,
Dean.

[marcus]

That's all right, then, Dean! :-)I'm glad you've bothered to look up that business of the War starting ten years after Helen was abducted. I was certain that you were right, but had no way of checking it, so I preferred not to get caught up in that part of the debate.All the bestMarcus

[yiannis]

I think I'll disagree with that time estimation. I can't check it right now but as I remember there was no significant delay from the abduction of Helen to the begginig of the war. In my mind the whole story is taking place in a timefame of a bit over 10 years for Iliad and 10 more years for Odyssey.
It could be the case that in real life an army could take time to assemble, negotiations to take place etc... but let's remember that we're reffering to the Iliad at the moment and not the historical event. After all we don't have any solid information on the Trojan war. It was most probably waged over domination of the Hellespond straights (modern day Dardanelles) and commerce with the Black sea (Efxeinos Pontos).Here's the Iliad in electronic format:
http://www.uoregon.edu/~joelja/iliad.html

[marcus]

Problem is, Yiannis, that this is exactly the quote, taken from the online version that you kindly pointed us to:"Hector," said she, "dearest of all my brothers-in-law-for I am wife
to Alexandrus who brought me hither to Troy- would that I had died ere
he did so- twenty years are come and gone since I left my home and
came from over the sea, but I have never heard one word of insult or
unkindness from you."All the bestMarcus

[yiannis]

Hmmm, very good point Marcus. It makes me revise my opinion...

[jan]

Yes, I will try to give you some examples on the use of the Iliad in the book tomorrow. A good book on the Trojan War is Troy by Adele Geras. It is a children's book but very adult and interesting in its concept and use of the gods and goddesses. Adele is an excellent writer and is heartwarming.O'Brien does prove that the gods, especially Dionysus, are very influential and important to Alexander as well as to Olympias. He uses excerpts from the Iliad to bolster Alexander's actions and decisions. It is most interesting and intriguing to realize the time and effort that he has spent in comparing Alexander to passages from the Iliad. He makes his case and has opened my eyes to a couple of incidents that other texts do not do.

[jorgios]

Well i'll be, im mistaken!thanks for clearing that up Dean!It's funny, that observation just shows how much of the details of the Illiad must be based on fact, rather than just pure mythology, because if you come to the conclusion that Homer was just trying to tell a good story(rather than a history) you would assume he would have re-written the part about it taking them ten years to decide to rescure Helen!Regards,
Jorge

[Jorgios]

If i am not mistaken, Geras' book is what the upcoming American production of "Troy"(starring Bradd Pitt, Orlando Bloom) will be based on, correct?