Pseudo-Callisthenes

[Daniel]

I have read Richard Stoneman's Penguin Classics' Greek Alexander Romance and I am hoping you would be able to help me. Basically I am confused about the references of Pseudo-Callisthenes to Alexander and the Macedonians as Greeks such as: Nectanebo was laid to rest "in Macedonia in a Greek grave" (1.14)
Philip is "king of the Greeks" (1.23)
Alexander is "Greek king" (1.37)
Alexander "is Greek" (2.3 and 4)On the other hand we have a separation between "Greeks and Macedonians" in 3.1As Richard Stonemeb explained in the introduction p.3, the Macedonians were not Greeks, though their kings claimed Greek nationality. Do you think that this is the reason why Alexander is "Greek" in the Romance, or is it because of some other reason? Thanks
Daniel

[susan]

I think that by the time the Romance was finally written down, the distinction between Greek & Macedonian was long since lost. Macedonia was part of Greece, Greek was the common language, and many of the intended audience may not have heard of Macedonia anyway. There are similarities with the Arthurian legends - often foreigners came under the blanket term of Romans or Moors, when all that was meant was that they were foreign.
In this case Alexander was more Greek than Persian or Egyptian, so he became Greek. When you're dealing with audiences who were expected to believe in living headless men, with their faces on their chests, nationality was a minor matter. Susan

[beausefaless]

Daniel, There's a very hard to find video called, "Macedonia The Land of a God", volume 1 Aina, Aiges, Dion & Pella volume 2 Amphipolis, Philippi & Thessaloniki
This difinitive series on Macedonia has been praised for both its authenticity and scholarly content. The programs were made under the archeological consultanship of a Greek scholar of classical archeology, Dimitri Pandermalis, noted for his work as Director of the excavation at Dion/Mt. Olympus. This in-depth look into the cultural history of Macedonia feature all of the museums and excavations in the cities of the ancient kingdom and discribes why and how the Macedonians are Greeks.

[Daniel]

I got it - in the Egyptian version of Pseudo-Callisthenes he is Egyptian, in the Persian version he is Persian, and in the Greek he is Greek. Every nation wants him and presented him as theirs, but he was in fact just a Macedonian.Anyways its wrong to make Macedonia part of Greece, when during the Romance writing, even the Roman provinces of Macedonia and Greece were acknoledged as separate. Actualy the distinction between Greek and Macedonian continued well beyond the time the romance was written. Even the much later Byzantine authors distinqguished the Macedonians from the Greeks as two separate nations and the latest Spanish genetical reaserch showed that the modern Macedonians are descendents of Alexander's while both ancient and modern Greeks have sub-Safaran origin and are unrelated to the Macedonians.

[Daniel]

Greek sources are generaly unreliable and biased:http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ancie ... tmlAnyways, geneticaly it is proven that the Macedonians were never Greek but a distinct nation which conquered them, and are today one of the oldest European peoples which still inhabit the same land.

[jorgios]

The "subsaharan " study was an internet forgery, and it is based on faulty anthropology. A similar study finds links between japanese and bantu tribesmen. Not to mention the fact that modern slavic macedonians and modern greeks both share similar genes, being of the same balkan stock. It is sheer stupidity and ignorance to believe in such pseudoscientifically racist internet fluff such as that study. It is worth knowing that half the scientists who supposedly "worked" on the study, were of slavic macedonian ethnic stock. I smell a rat.In any case, the Macedonians, as far as we know are at least Greek speaking by the time of Alexander.I smell a political agenda in this post.

[susan]

Alexander is generally of a flexible nationality in the Romance.The Malay annals starts:When Raja Iskandar, the Two-Horned, son of Raja Darab, a Roman of the country of Macedonia, So here we have Roman, Macedonian, Persian.I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from the Romance - some parts seem sensible, then the next sentence is totally nonsensical.Susan

[Daniel]

You wrote:
" The "subsaharan " study was an internet forgery, and it is based on faulty anthropology." This is nonsence. The research was not an "internet forgery" but a result of scientific efforts of a highly respected Spanish scientists, backed by world medical societies - whose reasults you happen to not like. The Spanish genetic team, personaly collected samples from both modern Greeks and Macedonians. Thus it is scientificaly proven that the Macedonians had never been Greek. You wrote:
In any case, the Macedonians, as far as we know are at least Greek speaking by the time of Alexander.Not true. We have enough evidence today - both ancient and modern - that points that Macedonian was a distinct language, a point that is more and more accepted by the modern scholars.

[Daniel]

Yes this is it. Thank you very much Susan for pointing it out. Can you please give me the Malay book info so that I can pick it up from the library.Thanks
Daniel

[tre]

I guess that standards for scientific conclusions have dramatically dropped since I was in school. I'd love to know how taking DNA samples from modern greeks and macedonians proves absolutely anything about ancient greeks and macedonians

[jorgios]

Spanish and Slavic-Macedonian names are on the study, you conveniently avoid that. The study is only to be found on the internet.Here is what a panel of Italian anthropologists say of the study.On the mtDNA and Y-chromosome front, traces of Asian-specific DNA have been detected in the Greek gene pool (though amounting to much less than in Northern and Eastern Europe), but no sub-Saharan African genes have turned up. It bears mentioning here that there's a genetic study floating around the web that alleges Greeks to be closely related to Ethiopians. This study has been discredited, as it's full of factual and even spelling errors. But its biggest error is its use as ancestral markers of HLA genes, which control immune responses and therefore, like sickle cell, are subject to environmental selection. This means they're not reliable in determining ancestral affinity, as using them thus can find bonds of kinship between Greeks and Japanese, as well as between Nordics in Iceland and Negroids in the Congo (Mourant et al., 1976). I personally also find it strange that Modern Greeks and Slavic Macedonians share no similarities, and i tend to agree with Tre on how some kind of DNA study on modern balkan greeks and macedonians can prove anything about the ancients? and where exactly did you get the ancient Macedonian DNA? Truly Bizarre.This forum does not beneift from nationalist/racist dribble such as what you have posted thanks!Free your mind to the splendours of scholarship and understanding!

[beausefaless]

Very little of the Macedonian tongue has survived, there is no doubt that it was a Greek dialect. This is clear from a whole series of indications and linguistic phenomena by which the koine of the region is "colored" which are not Attic but which can only have derived from a Greek dialect. For example: The vast majority of even the earliest names, whether dynastic names or not, are Greek, formed from Greek roots and according to Greek models: Hadista, Philista, Sostrata, Philotas, Perdikkas, Machatas and hundreds of others. In general, the remnants of the Macedonian dialect that have come down to us have a completely different character from Ionic. This circumstance is patent proof that there can be no question of the ancient Macedonians having been Hellenised, as has been asserted (Karst), for such Hellenisation could have been only by the Greek colonies on the Macedonian coast, in which the Ionian element was predominant (Beloch).

[Daniel]

You wrote: Spanish and Slavic-Macedonian names are on the study, you conveniently avoid that. The study is only to be found on the internet.You scream about 'internet forgeries' yet you making it all along. The study nowhere says "Slavic-Macedonian" - please use the correct form - Macedonian. I didn't avoid anything though. The study was done by the Spanish scientists, the Macedonians named only supplied the samples (just like the Greeks did), but it ISthe Spanish which analized them and come to the conclusions. Downplaying the study is not safe anyways, cause it is part of major medical journals, and yes that means beeing printed by respected medical societies - thus it is not an 'internet forgery'. Still can you please provide the source of the study of th panel of Italian anthropologists you quoted, i.e. book, address, etc. Thanks.You wrote: I personally also find it strange that Modern Greeks and Slavic Macedonians share no similarities, and i tend to agree with Tre on how some kind of DNA study on modern balkan greeks and macedonians can prove anything about the ancients? and where exactly did you get the ancient Macedonian DNA? Truly Bizarre.One should not underestimate what science can do today. You wrote: This forum does not beneift from nationalist/racist dribble such as what you have posted thanks!
Free your mind to the splendours of scholarship and understanding!I agree, but my mind is free. Is yours? Can you accept that on the study it says black on white "Macedonians" and not "Slavic Macedonians" as you imagine? Lets not forge facts.

[jorgios]

In modern times it is important to make a distinction between modern greek macedonians, slavic macedonians, and albanian macedonians. This supposed study deals with Slav Macedonians. It was a study created by racists to attempt to degrade Greeks in general in regards to the semi-current disputes on the "greek/macedonian" debate.I could really care less about that debate, or modern politics for that matter. but it is important to call that study what it is . A fabulous piece of internet propaganda. Just because it says it was published in medical journals does not mean that it was. I encourage you to send me in the mail hard copies of these journals, i will supply my address on demand.

[Daniel]

You wrote: In modern times it is important to make a distinction between modern greek macedonians, slavic macedonians, and albanian macedonians. This supposed study deals with Slav Macedonians. There are only one Macedonians and they are neither Greek nor Albanian. Like I proved in the previous post, it is your problem that you can not accept a simple fact and that in the study there is clear mentioning to ancient and modern Macedonians as oposed to Greeks, not "Slav Macedonians" not "Greek Macedonians" not "Albanian Macedonians". Obviously YOU are a rasist since you forge i.e. rename the truth.You wrote: It was a study created by racists to attempt to degrade Greeks in general in regards to the semi-current disputes on the "greek/macedonian" debate. (the rest of this nonsence cut)To call a a team of Spanish scientists "resists" because you do not like their scientific results -is preposterous. We have anyways all seen who is the rasist above and as such you do not belong to this forum.