Discussion on Chaeronea
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:01 pm
Kathleen Toohey has published a detailed analysis of Chaeronea here https://www.academia.edu/s/cc85aad334?source=ai_email.
I wouldn't know how to do that - and I'm not an academic so I'd feel a bit out of place there. but AIUI, this forum is public, so a link to the thread here should make it accessible.
my knowledge of military strategy is limited, and I have the greatest respect for Hammond, but "plug the valley" is a perfect description of what the topography or the terrain demands from defenders.Paralus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:32 am The Greeks intended a defensive battle. To that end they far more likely plugged the valley at its western end.
Here the Greek line is in blue and the Macedonian in Red (the MAcedonian burial mound is the red spot). Escape routes over the Kerata pass are shown in black. The position blocks the valley and negates the Macedonian strike weapon of cavalry.
Chaeroneia topo2022.1.png
Very kind. Been about, just involved in other concerns including, but not limited to, getting old, the real world biting and deep dives into Zama and Roman historians.
In the end, we do not know the lie of the land - not to mention streams - 2,360 years ago. I drove the road south to Thebes via Caheroneia back in 2007. Unfortunately no time for any extended stop and late in the afternoon. The land off to the south just out of Chaeroneia is hilly and overgrown in parts. One can only imagine a more wooded scene back in 338 BC. The area about Chaeroneia itself was likely cultivated then as it is now. The Greeks of the time well knew it though. They had attempted to block the Gravia Pass the previous winter. Something they failed in doing. The next line is Chaeroneia.chris_taylor wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:35 pmmy knowledge of military strategy is limited, and I have the greatest respect for Hammond, but "plug the valley" is a perfect description of what the topography or the terrain demands from defenders.
Paralus red and blue lines run parallel or almost on top of an unmade road that runs dead straight for 2km, between the two mountain ranges. It's an odd kind of road and I'm not sure why it is where it is. There isn't another one like it in the valley.
but if Paralus is right - and having walked it, I personally am absolutely convinced he is - then the two armies once lined up on either side of this road.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1COUOv0 ... share_link
Alexias - the road Chris speaks of is my Macedonian red line.Alexias wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:23 am Chris, I can't place your unpaved road on Google maps. The road that cuts straight across the mouth of the valley appears to be paved across the river and railway (as far as the images go). At the river, I can't make out if there is a dam, weir, or floodgates near or under the bridge, but flooding appears to still be an issue here, which would make a road across the mouth of the valley logical as the shortest route, even in antiquity.
you're quite right, I misrembered it as a hard-earth-gravel-track.Alexias wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:23 am Chris, I can't place your unpaved road on Google maps. The road that cuts straight across the mouth of the valley appears to be paved across the river and railway (as far as the images go). At the river, I can't make out if there is a dam, weir, or floodgates near or under the bridge, but flooding appears to still be an issue here, which would make a road across the mouth of the valley logical as the shortest route, even in antiquity.
Paralus wrote:...as Ma has shown he remains from the polyandrion show horrific head wounds inflicted by a downward heavy slashing weapon: the cavalry kopis...
thanks for providing this quote. I cut it together to double check that I didn't misunderstand the numbers: 254 skeletons, they took 3 skulls to examine and in 2 of those, the injury pattern suggests the assailants were above the victim.SpartanJKM wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:49 pm
...The multiple head wounds on three of the hoplites’ skulls
The nature of the wounds on the Theban dead provides some evidence in this debate. The sharp force trauma wounds on the skulls from Chaironeia are consistently on the top of the head.
The angle of all but one of the injuries suggests the assailants were above their victims,