Who Ever Heard Of The Italian Empire?

Discuss the culture of Alexander's world and his image in art

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Alexanders Empire

Poll ended at Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:47 pm

Alexander Empire
2
29%
Macedonian Empire
4
57%
Greek Empire
1
14%
 
Total votes: 7

jasonxx

Who Ever Heard Of The Italian Empire?

Post by jasonxx »

People from Pothos I have read and analysed the so called Alexander. Macedonian and obsurdly the Greek Empire.

Where on earth does any kind of labeling of Greek Empire come into play, It doesnt at all. Even if Macedon is argued to be Greek it staill can never be called a Greek Empire. I see documentaries labeling Alexanders conquest as Greek. The Greeks did this or the Greeks did something else. Its about time Alexanders Empire be correctly said. It was Primerily Alexanders Empire and Equally Macedonian. To argue anything Else is crazy. Maybe Macedon a Greek City state.

Rome was an Italian City State yet the Roman Empire is labeled and known through History for 2000 years as the Roman Empire not in any historical writings or text is this Empire Ever called the Italian Empire. So there can never be a such a thing as a Greek Empire connected with Alexander.

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Re: Who Ever Heard Of The Italian Empire?

Post by marcus »

"jasonxx" ... "Kenny" - have you just given yourself away? :D
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Re: Who Ever Heard Of The Italian Empire?

Post by amyntoros »

marcus wrote:"jasonxx" ... "Kenny" - have you just given yourself away? :D
Ah, I suspected Kenny when "Jasonxx" used Paralus' real name in his first thread. No new member would have known that, or been so informal as to use it. :lol:

On other matters, this, um, is a bit of a controversial topic, IMO. Isn't it just another way of potentially starting up the Greek/Macedonian debate?

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Post by Efstathios »

Kenny or jasonxx, Italy is a modern word.Back in the ancient times the word Italy or italians didnt exist.It was Rome and the Romans.But the word Greek existed then and exists also now.And there has been a continuality.

But first read what "Greek" means.Who is a Greek.When someone was named as a Greek back in the ancient times.Wasnt Aristotle from Stageira of Macedonia?Was he called a Macedonian?Or a Greek?Or what about Eyripedes,who was also from Macedonia?
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Post by aleksandros »

Efstathios, that was exactly what i was going to say...

I think if theres a debate on how the empire should be called the first to give an answer would have to be Alexander himself. And so he did.

After the battle of Granicus Alexander sent to Athens 300 persian armors with the following message: "Alexander and the Greeks except the Spartans, From Asia which is populated by barbarians."
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Post by rjones2818 »

alexanthros wrote:Efstathios, that was exactly what i was going to say...

I think if theres a debate on how the empire should be called the first to give an answer would have to be Alexander himself. And so he did.

After the battle of Granicus Alexander sent to Athens 300 persian armors with the following message: "Alexander and the Greeks except the Spartans, From Asia which is populated by barbarians."
I would then go for a Macedonian/Greek/Alexander empire!

:twisted:

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Post by jasonxx »

You got Me Marcus. I got my Modem fried and had to re register.

Althougha very Good argument can be made about the points I made. Its the same as anything faith etc its what we choose to believe. I dont believe any the negative stuff about Alexander but at the same time cant prove my point.

Hewever I gotta say the vote for the Empire been Greek is pie in the sky. The only Greek attatchment was there because it suited him in the beggining a little like the false pretext of going to war against the Iraqis some phoney excuse about weapons of amss distruction. Wars and conquest are precipated by capitalist corporate bankers. Alexansders was basically in it for self glorification and fame.

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Post by dean »

Hi Kenny,

ehmmm well, this post is easliy as "hot" as Jasonxxxx's first-explosive post, so, although on one hand I am tempted to say "Well, gee, I guess you're right, there never was an Italian empire" on the other, I have to say, this could drag up a lot of nasty future posts, so what do you say we leave it Jason? :lol:

I just can't wait for the next installment :D

See ya Kenny and as an old Irish mate of mine once used to say,"be good, and if you can't be good be careful!!"

Best,
Dean
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Post by aleksandros »

jasonxx wrote:You got Me Marcus. I got my Modem fried and had to re register.

Althougha very Good argument can be made about the points I made. Its the same as anything faith etc its what we choose to believe. I dont believe any the negative stuff about Alexander but at the same time cant prove my point.

Hewever I gotta say the vote for the Empire been Greek is pie in the sky. The only Greek attatchment was there because it suited him in the beggining a little like the false pretext of going to war against the Iraqis some phoney excuse about weapons of amss distruction. Wars and conquest are precipated by capitalist corporate bankers. Alexansders was basically in it for self glorification and fame.

Kenny
I think its embarrasing to make such a comparison between the war against terror and Alexander's armed exploration...

Alexander didnt start a war against a country that 'could' be a threat in the future...

The Persians had invaded Greece in the past and were depressing the greek cities in Asia minor at the time of Alexnder.

eleos!

Alexander himself said after the destruction of Persepolis that the war of revenge was over. He then kept going on to Bactria to capture Bessus and after that he went to India to take the Aornus (something that Heracles couldnt do) and maybe find an end (the ocean). The invasion of India was only for glory. The previous expeditions were not just for glory...

And ofcourse you cant say that Bush started a war for his glory! He does whatever the rulers of the world order him to do.

God have Mercy!
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Latin rather than Italian, methinks, Jaskenxx

Post by Paralus »

Efstathios wrote:Kenny or jasonxx, Italy is a modern word.Back in the ancient times the word Italy or italians didnt exist.It was Rome and the Romans.But the word Greek existed then and exists also now.And there has been a continuality.
G'day Efstathios.

Kenny's comparison is somewhat poorly chosen. Macedonia was just as much an outside entity to the Greek city states as each was to the other - more so in fact. There was rarely any "Hellenism" or "Greekness" evinced unless there was an outside catalyst. The Aegean Islanders – all separate "countries" – only ever joined with one another due to the Persian threat. Following the "Peace of Kallias", if not before for several, they suffered Athenian dominance because – as Philip would later do to the mainland city states – Athens removed (for the greater part) their ability to resist and divided the rest.

Those same states resented the overwrought and arrogant dominance of Sparta as defined by the pretentious and ostentatious (for a Spartan) Lysnander. Thebes, too, was resisted and resented as much as the corrupt Spartan hegemony it replaced. Athens, indeed, promptly allied herself with the now fallen city that had usurped its imperial status after the Peleponnesian war against the "aggressive" Thebans.

I am reminded of Monty Python's "I’m an individual". Indeed those states were.

Contrary to the usual city state bellicosity, Philip and Macedonia were viewed as a corporate outside entity. This was as much because of the fact that Philip – and his son to follow – was Macedonia as for any other reason. The Macedonians never spoke for themselves; their cities mattered not. The king was Macedonia. This was a concept foreign to the vast bulk of the "I'm an individual" city states. And it would remain so.

It would, perhaps, be a better example to state that the Roman Empire was not a Latin Empire. The Latin tribes fiercely resented their subservient status under Roman expansionist imperialism (as did the Samnites), as much as did the Greek city states under the Macedonian version.

Unlike Alexander's Macedon, the Romans had no hesitation in pushing their Latin underclass into army service to expand the Roman writ. In fact, given the troubles this caused – Gaius Marius offering his Latin levies "citizenship" and land for sterling service – one might possibly see why.

I seriously doubt the city states will have responded to offers of Macedonian citizenship for imperial service. Athens, and this is indicative, did, though, offer Athenian citizenship to both Macedonian imperialists: Philip and Alexander. Indeed, these were not the last Macedonian dynasts to be invited to share the benefits of citizenship of the state.
Last edited by Paralus on Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Who started what?

Post by Paralus »

alexanthros wrote:Alexander didnt start a war against a country that 'could' be a threat in the future...

The Persians had invaded Greece in the past and were depressing the greek cities in Asia minor at the time of Alexnder.
Well, yes, some 146 years ago. This was – pardon the pun – ancient history. Apart from several romantic panhellenists – Xenophon and Isocrates among them – there was no great enthusiasm for a "crusade" against Persia.

There was a "détente" between the Great King's empire and the Greeks of the west that had essentially existed since the Athenian disasters in Egypt (a presager to Sicily and on similar scale) and Crete (where Kimon, the first panhellenist, died) forced the Peace of Kallias. From then on, the King began to exert his not inconsiderable influence in Greek affairs. This resulted in the utterly embarrassing (to the men of 480/79) crawling to the King by the combatants in the Peloponnesian war for gold Darics. It was a contest where the morally upright upholder of the "liberty of the Hellenes", Sparta, won hands down. One might rework that Laconian line: "If you don't come home on your shield, come home with it full of Persian silver".

The result of Persia franking a Spartan empire was the wholesale sell-out of the Asiatic Greeks. Desultory efforts by Agesilaos aside, this was enforced during the peace negotiations between Sparta and Persia during 394 (after the Persian fleet annihilated the Spartan at Cnidus) and 390. This resulted in the "Kings Peace" of 387. It is aptly named for the King did indeed dictate it to the Greeks through his chosen instrument, Sparta. As he later would through his next instrument, Thebes.

In all these "agreements" one thing is crystal clear: it is the mainland Greek city states that are sedulously selling the Greeks of Asia Minor to the Great King for imperial/hegemonic gain at home, not the Great King advancing imperial duress by force. The Persian king simply took advantage of the squabbling Greeks. As would any other power.
alexanthros wrote:Alexander himself said after the destruction of Persepolis that the war of revenge was over. He then kept going on to Bactria to capture Bessus and after that he went to India to take the Aornus (something that Heracles couldnt do) and maybe find an end (the ocean). The invasion of India was only for glory. The previous expeditions were not just for glory...!
Oh dear, where to begin?

The delicious irony of the end of the "Greek revenge" (with at most some 7,000 "Greeks" in an invading army of 47,000) propaganda campaign was that after Persepolis, Alexander then had to find another casus belli and so he chose to liberate the Persians from….well, themselves I suppose.

The entire expedition was one of Macedonian imperialism and Alexandrian grandeur. To Alexander, liberation of the Greek states of Asia minor involved the changing of governments and the continuation of Persian tribute. One might be tempted to think that such contravened the constitution of the League of Corinth. But, what the hey?
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Post by aleksandros »

Werent the Macedonians Greeks? Am i missing something here?

Good lordy!

You insult the one who thought that was a descedant of Achilles and Heracles. I doubt if you had the courage to tell Alexander himself that he was not a Greek... (hypothesis)
Maybe you should prove to him that Achilles ans Heracles were not Greeks.

Paralus have you ever visited Pella?
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Perceptions.....

Post by Paralus »

alexanthros wrote:You insult the one who thought that was a descedant of Achilles and Heracles. I doubt if you had the courage to tell Alexander himself that he was not a Greek... (hypothesis)
Maybe you should prove to him that Achilles ans Heracles were not Greeks.
I do no such thing. I see little point in debating an historical character's mythical lineage. Courage has little to do with it.

Might I suggest you read the post again? It is all a matter of perception. That perception being the perception held by city states of the time, both of themselves and Macedon, not ours from the confines of an entirely different world. Modern comparisons are fraught with difficulty, but, one might as well say the Portuguese are Spanish. Or, a better analogy, the disparate nations – all fiercely separate entities to be sure – among the Native Americans of the plains who took time out from their internecine wars to get on with life. They too shared a "common heritage".

The "southern" Greek city states viewed Macedon as another entity (mind you, Athens considered Sparta the in the same light). They resented their subjugation. They were, only by virtue of their military emasculation, reconciled to Philip's and, after Thebes, a fortiori, Alexander's panhellenic war of "retribution". Were they convinced of such? Most unlikely. The whole thing was a conveniently tossed blanket upon the bedclothes lying beneath: Macedonian imperial aggrandisement. The League of Corinth was the mattress and pillows added for the comfort of the ride.
alexanthros wrote:Paralus have you ever visited Pella?
That will occur in late January.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: Perceptions.....

Post by aleksandros »

Paralus wrote:
alexanthros wrote:Paralus have you ever visited Pella?
That will occur in late January.
You know what?
I wont answer to your post. It would be much better for you and for me to have this debate after you visit Pella. ok?
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Re: Perceptions.....

Post by Paralus »

alexanthros wrote: It would be much better for you and for me to have this debate after you visit Pella. ok?
I'm fine with that. Seeing the ruins, the tumulus and its museum will little change my view I'd think.

I did enjoy the 2004 Olympics opening ceremony though. I 'd imagine that the incredible irony of Alexander being feted so in an Athens that, some two thousand three hundred and forty years ago, lost 1,000 dead and two thousand captured whilst fighting the same Greek hero and his father at Chaeronea, was lost on large part of the viewing audience.

The day that "Greek" liberty died.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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