Complete Idiot's Guide to Alexander

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Phoebus
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Re: Complete Idiot's Guide to Alexander

Post by Phoebus »

Fiona wrote:That's cool, Phoebus - can I just ask, though, how large a part does Alexander's reaction to Hephaistion's death play in making you think their relationship transcended ordinary friendship? I mean, if we had no details at all about this, would you still think that on the remaining evidence? I can see how it could - the scene with Sisygambis is enough on its own, really, along with Curtius' accompanying comments - I'm just interested in what forms people's impressions of Hephaistion and of the quality of his friendship with Alexander.
Hi Fiona,

That's a good question. If I had no details of Hephaestion's death and the emotions this brought out in Alexander, the scene with Dareius' family following Issus would indeed be a defining one. But not only that... consider, if you will, what even the sparse text offered for Alexander's marriage to Stateira means: the fact that he vocally wished his children to be cousins to Hephaestion's own shows that the two were not just great friends; Alexander wanted their children to have the same relationship they would have had just as if their fathers had been brothers in blood as well as in sentiment. No one else that he called Friend--genuinely or not--did he ever reward so wholeheartedly.

To me, that stands right up there with Alexander's grief.
The loss of someone he could truly trust that much must have been devastating, and I wouldn't minimise it - but it's the clinging to the body, and refusing to leave go that make me that we are talking about more than a friend here, but a spouse. If it wasn't that, then the charges of instability start to gain currency, I think.
A spouse, or a sibling, I would imagine. And I would go so far as to say that most siblings probably never develop the relationship of absolute trust and friendship Alexander and Hephaestion had. I would also posit that, had Alexander and Hephaestion not built their friendship over so many countless challenges and trials, from one end of the world to the next, that their relationship would not have been nearly as meaningful. Had Alexander not been the king of Macedon, or a king at all, his and Hephaestion's friendship would not have been what it was.
Yes, it's over the top, but that's just Alexander ...
Fiona
What's sad in my eyes is that most of his lieutenants were incapable of replicating even a shadow of that that sort of friendship with one another either before or after Alexander's death.

Any one of them would have deserved over the top celebrations and funerals following their passing (judging by the standard of what was to come, as Paralus pointed out in a very informative series of posts a few weeks ago), but the best they managed for one another once the fighting started was Antigonus' weak display of sorrow as his "friend" Eumenes was first starved and then executed under his captivity (with the fast kill coming only after his army demonstrated their feelings on the matter).
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Fiona
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Re: Complete Idiot's Guide to Alexander

Post by Fiona »

Phoebus wrote:
That's a good question. If I had no details of Hephaestion's death and the emotions this brought out in Alexander, the scene with Dareius' family following Issus would indeed be a defining one. But not only that... consider, if you will, what even the sparse text offered for Alexander's marriage to Stateira means: the fact that he vocally wished his children to be cousins to Hephaestion's own shows that the two were not just great friends; Alexander wanted their children to have the same relationship they would have had just as if their fathers had been brothers in blood as well as in sentiment. No one else that he called Friend--genuinely or not--did he ever reward so wholeheartedly.

To me, that stands right up there with Alexander's grief.
Thanks, that's very interesting. And I do agree about the importance of this bit of evidence - it does emphasise the feeling of brothers, that they felt like brothers - at least, that Alexander did, and I'm hoping that Hephaistion felt the same way!
Phoebus wrote:
A spouse, or a sibling, I would imagine. And I would go so far as to say that most siblings probably never develop the relationship of absolute trust and friendship Alexander and Hephaestion had. I would also posit that, had Alexander and Hephaestion not built their friendship over so many countless challenges and trials, from one end of the world to the next, that their relationship would not have been nearly as meaningful. Had Alexander not been the king of Macedon, or a king at all, his and Hephaestion's friendship would not have been what it was.
I guess there might be siblings that close. It's a fair possibility, especially when you consider different levels of emotional attachment and emotional inter dependence in different societies - this wasn't a modern nuclear family type society! Great point about all the challenges and trials - this was a friendship that had the opportunity to grow to an amazing level, and as you say, without that opportunity, it might not have grown into anything so remarkable. On the other hand, each had his own character, which he would still have had in a normal, non-military, non-royal life, and they'd still have been attracted to each other, still been each other's perfect complement, I think, even if they'd been popping down to the workshop to make pots each day.
Phoebus wrote:
What's sad in my eyes is that most of his lieutenants were incapable of replicating even a shadow of that that sort of friendship with one another either before or after Alexander's death.

Any one of them would have deserved over the top celebrations and funerals following their passing (judging by the standard of what was to come, as Paralus pointed out in a very informative series of posts a few weeks ago), but the best they managed for one another once the fighting started was Antigonus' weak display of sorrow as his "friend" Eumenes was first starved and then executed under his captivity (with the fast kill coming only after his army demonstrated their feelings on the matter).
Very true. It's a very striking thing, and almost unbelievable. They'd been together just as long, fought and suffered together, and then they turn on each other? Very little loyalty or trust anywhere, not much sense that any of them had ever been true friends. I wonder why, very much. Did the lure of power blind them to all they'd meant to each other? Or did they feel so antagonistic all along? If so, it's a great tribute to Alexander that he held them together for so long.

Fiona
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