Alexander and Roxanne

[karla]

Hey all,According to Renault, as many others I suppose, Alexander married ROxanne because he had actually fallen in love with her. Since most marriages of Alexander's time are made for convenience and not love, is Renault's claim accurate? I am personally hesitant to believe that he was in love, but what other reasons could he have for marrying her? One could argue that it was part of his plan to unite the east and west, but he had achieved this by marrying Darius' daughter. So why marry Roxanne?Thanks...

[Aaron Samson]

This is a paragraph out of Arrians book
"She was a girl of marriageable age, and men men who took part in the campaign used to say she was the lovoveliest woman they had seen in Asia, with one exception Darius wife. Alexander fell in love with her at sight; but, captive though she was, he refused, for all his passion, to force her to his will, and condescended to marry her. For this act I have, on the whole, more praise than blame."He may have also had less of a problem taking another wife due to his commitment to embracing Persian culture. If you can have infinite wives than the importance of marriage is diminished.

[Nax]

Hmm, closer reading seems to indicate a marriage to secure an area so 1) he didn't have wolves at his back and 2) he could get on with things rather than spend more time in the backlands than he planned

[Jeanne]

Hi, Karla! My own thought on it is that it was a wonderful to secure his back. (That's already been pointed out.)Frank Holt has a great discussion of this in Alexander the Great and Baktria. The Formation of a Greek Frontier in Central Asia. Supplements to Mnemosyne #104 (Leiden, 1988). Also see his article, "Alexander's Settlements in Central Asia," Archaia Makedonia #4 (1986) 315ff.Now, summarizing what Frank said (briefly and not nearly so well) ... The tribes of the area wanted to have an shifting frontier. These are largely nomadic or semi-nomadic, and they didn't want anything TOO solid. They didn't recognize "empire" by the usual Mesopotamian/Mid-East standards. This is Afghanistan -- the same area that had given fits to the Persians before ATG, gave fits to the Romans, later, and etc., and etc. ... right down to right now.ATG spent a year up there, getting his ass handed to him (not to put too fine a point on it). The Macedonians weren't any good at that kind of warfare. Alex finally figured it out, and took a page from his father's book, marrying his way to peace. The Macedonian kings practiced royal polygamy, so it wasn't unusual.That's the cynical view. Roxane was a means to an end -- peace in Baktria and Sogdiana. That doesn't mean he didn't find her pleasing to the eye, or that the idea may not have popped into his head after seeing her. "Hey, she's something ... what if I marry her? Will that shut them up?"Don't be too deceived by Arrian's stoic-influenced attitudes about marriage (or anything else). (g) Arrian wasn't a Macedonian. He was an Eastern Greek, student of Epictetus (Go here: http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/e/epictetu.htm), and a friend of Hadrian, and sometimes it shows. ;>

[ruthaki]

Having done as much research as possible on the subject for my historical fiction novel, in which Roxana is a major player, I have concluded that yes, he was attracted to her. Yes, he married her for political reasons (to secure the country. He gave her father position of satrap and had a couple of her brothers in his army)In doing so he was following the example of his father Philip. But he soon abandoned her although she did go with him to India. When he decided to marry the Persian princess (for much the same reasons) Roxana was sent off to Ecbatana. There's lots of stories about her firey temper and jealous nature. Some say she was similiar to his mother in this respect. And she undoubtedly had her hand in the murder of Stateira, the princess. Both of them were pregnant at the time and allegedly Roxana was not going to allow her rival to give birth to a possible heir. She's a fascinating character. Not a lot written about her but what there is has been a wonderful source for developing her character in my historical fiction novel. I've got a different take on her than Renault did in 'Funeral Games' and I've also developed the characters of the other women in Alexander's life, including Olympias and Adeia-Eurydike, much more than what the historians have written. These were strong, fascinating women of history. Ruthaki

[nick]

Hi Aaron -I suppose your assumption of polygamy is not entirely correct. Of all Persian Great Kings prior to Alexander only Darius I is known to have married more than one wife. (In fact 12, but for the very practical reason that the original Royal line was broken and family ties had to be re-secured again.) All other Persian kings before and after Darius I are known to have married just one single wife. They had their concubines, yes, but just one wife.The Macedonian Royal house was polygamist by nature, not the Achaemenid / Persian house.Best regards -
Nick

[nick]

Hi Jeanne -I can not say in words what a delight it is to have you back on the Forum.Like Ruth said, Alexander's motives were probably both political / military as well as affectionate. I also fully agree with your statement that the "frontiers" of the (Persian) empire - if they existed at all! - were thought to be flexible especially in the north-eastern corners of the realm. I have argued in the past that the concept of an empire as a "lobster" - fixed borders that could be and had to be defended - was more akin to e.g. the Roman empire than to the Achaemenids.I just like to add two thoughts to the Roxane discussion.1. In Achaemenid times local revolts (led by usurpers) against a new king were not uncommon. We have a few examples of (eastern) satrapies only recognizing the hegemony of the new Great King after he had shown up with a grand army to claim what was rightfully his. Just as if the empire had to be reconquered time and time again. In that view, Alexander's campaigns in Bactria are a mirror image of what previous kings had to accomplish before they were firmly 'in the saddle'. So I would argue that only after the (nominal) subjugation of Bactria, Sogdia & surroundings Alexander had finally established his position as the true heir of the Achaemenids. So to me it comes at no surprise that that was the moment Alexander saw fit for his first marriage.2. Though I have read Carney etcetera, I suppose we shouldn't underestimate Roxane's ties to the Persian ruling classes and the Royal house. Centuries of intermarriage had created a dense cobweb of family relations. The satrapy of Bactria was by tradition ruled by the king's brother. I am very much in favor of the view that Roxane, yes, belonged to the local dynasty, but also that her kin was closely related to the uppermost Persian nobility. What I want to say is: we should not picture her as just "a native princess".Regards - Nick

[jan]

? Without being offensive, (I Hope), I must admit that I read the biography of Mary Renault in which it is stated that she is automatically thought of as a signal that this is a lesbian group.People who use her are indicating that they are lesbian according to the author of the book.Is there any truth to this statement?

[Jeanne]

Ruth -- If you haven't seen (and read) it already, you want to track down the work of Elizabeth Carney. She specializes in both women at the Mac court, and also on the court generally. (She doesn't just write about women.) But IMO, she does the absolute best work on Olympias, et al.

[susan]

Roxane's family must have had high enough status to sway local allegiance - Alexander wouldn't have married her if her family hadn't had sufficient regional influence to guarantee a temporary peace. There were earlier Achaemenid Roxane's, if I remember right - I think one was the sister of Atossa - and i think they were Bactrian. I think it's possible that she was a great-granddaughter, or further removed, of the royal line , probably on the female side - if it was a closer connection probably it would have been recorded - but a relationship this distant, particularly if it was on the female side, would probably have been lost on the Greek historians.I once found a version of Oxyartes' name in an old document that was similar to 'Zoroaster' - while this may have been a manuscript distortion, it made me wonder if, supposing it were true, their family had a connection to the Zoroastrian priesthood, who both carried authority and instigated the resistance in Bactria. If so, an alliance with them would have been worthwhile. However, this is speculation.As for her character - we've no evidence apart from the suggestion that she murdered Stateira, which, as we've discussed before, may or may not have been true. For the rest of her life, she seems to have offered little resistance to the powers that controlled her; indeed, she was in no position to do so.Susan

[karla]

"People who use her are indicating that they are lesbian according to the author of the book."lol... for the record, I would like to clarify that I am NOT a lesbian (I say this with no offence to anyone here) and only used Renault since I had recently read her work so she came to mind...Interesting thought of her being a lesbian. I haven't read her biography, but it makes sense to suggest that she might have been a lesbian since she never married...just a thought...

[Jeanne]

Thanks for the welcome Nick. Seeing your email again plus a letter from Susan was what prompted me to come say "hi," LOL!Both your points are good ones, particulary #2 wasn't something I'd thought of before, but you may be onto something. I'll have to ask Frank Holt about that, next time I see him (don't hold your breath -- LOL!), but I wonder how much we know about that dynasty.

[Jeanne]

I remember reading somewhere (and can't now recall) that the Achaemenid dynasty was related to the clan of Zarathustra, but we also know the magi were their own tribe, so I'm not sure how that fit in exactly. But it wouldn't surprise me to see some crossover there, and shared names.I'm about to do some more serious looking into Zoroastrianism for other purposes, so if I find mention of that family link again, I'll let y'all know.

[X]

[maciek]

I believe that it was his plan to marry the woman from Asia but he waited for the right one girl. I strongly believe that he waited for the affection and he finnaly found it in Roxana. He could take any other girl but he choosed this one - daughter of not the greatest Asian lords. Maciek M