New graves found at Aegae

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Taphoi
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New graves found at Aegae

Post by Taphoi »

New graves have been found at Aegae (modern Vergina) in Macedon in the marketplace. The archaeologists are also speculating that the remains discovered in a nearby grave last year are those of Heracles, Alexander's illegitimate son by Barsine.

Image

You can read the full story here:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... AD9AC26CG0

Most of what we know about Heracles and Barsine may be read in the Barsine chapter of my book on Alexander's Lovers. This chapter can be downloaded free of charge as a pdf from my website here:

http://www.alexanderslovers.com/main/sample.html

The find a year ago - a large copper vessel containing a gold wreath covering bones of a teenager in a gold(?) vessel - is shown here:

Image

and the find is described here:

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/selectlan ... rvice%3D96

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by Paralus »

Fascinating finds.

Why the marketplace? The story indicates that the bones had been re-interred. Diodorus indicates (20.28.1ff) that Cassander met Polyperchon in eastern Epirus (Tympaheum) where he persuaded the dilatory Diadoch to kill the half caste Heracles. This makes a good deal of sense: Cassander would hardly want Alexander's mongrel to make an entry into Macedon at Polyperchon’s side backed by those supporting Macedones, the Aetolians and others of old Poly-plod's army. The danger of such is clearly shown in Diodorus’ description of Cassander’s concern over the prospect of his troops vacillating in favour of the half caste.

If that were the case, one would suspect that the remains would be disposed of outside of Macedon as well; there being no good reason to then inter them in Pella or elsewhere in the kingdom. Who might have re-interred them?

Much guess work though and no identification has yet been made. That does not stop the writer asserting:
She said one of the silver vessels is "very, very similar" to another found decades ago at a nearby royal tumulus, where one grave has been identified as belonging to Philip II.
Not so fast. Much debate still continues on that subject. The balance having, recently, swung to Philip III. A bit like the “sarisa heads” identified by Andronikos in the same tumulus the identification of which is nowhere near as certain as Andronikos would have.
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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agesilaos
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by agesilaos »

Have to agree, there is no one who would be concerned to bury Herakles; Niarchos was probably in Asia or the grave, Polyperchon would not have wished to offend his new master. Kassander was succeeded by his sons, then Demetrios, who despite the ultimate sponsorship of the pretender being Antigonid surely had enough on his plate; and since we have reasonable sources for him we would expect it to be mentioned. Were the burial as unofficial as seems implied who would have dared? As far as we know there was no loving nurse to sweep up the remains.

Why not Karanos? At last archaeological proof of the murder of a viable heir by Alexander; No reprisals are mentioned against Karanos' mother and she would have the motive to maintain his links, post-mortem, with the Royal house...guff of course. Or is it? :shock:

The association of a second burial would be odd for Herakles perhaps these are the remains of Philip III and Eurydice the two royals we know were reburied (bummer if it is so want Philip to be the burial in tomb II). Until the remains are sexed and aged its so much ballon fuel.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

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agesilaos wrote: Why not Karanos? At last archaeological proof of the murder of a viable heir by Alexander; No reprisals are mentioned against Karanos' mother and she would have the motive to maintain his links, post-mortem, with the Royal house...guff of course. Or is it? :shock:

The association of a second burial would be odd for Herakles perhaps these are the remains of Philip III and Eurydice the two royals we know were reburied (bummer if it is so want Philip to be the burial in tomb II). Until the remains are sexed and aged its so much ballon fuel.
The "Thunderbolt"? Not certain that he'd have entertained the idea. Not too certain he entertained any concrete plans for too long.

Any attempted close examination of these years (285-279) results in a headlong flight to decent red wine or taps dispensing frothing ale. It seems not to matter how many times I read the source material which remains of this time (little that it is) I can't fathom Lysimachus. The bloke seems simply to have lost it. If we are to believe the thuggish, near "gangster" image he's done the White Heat topos: "top'a' da world Ma!!" He seems to have given far too much credence to the well named Arsinoe and bumped off his heir Agathocles. The Thunderbolt's full sister and wife of Agathocles, Lysandra, flies to Seleucus in Babylon with the Thunderbolt in tow "telling tales of drunkenness and cruelty" in the words of Ray Davies.

Hello folks and what's in it for workers?

Before the octagenarian Lysimachus - still with a full set of teeth, cowlick and cocked head - realises it, Seleucus, the Thunderbolt along for the ride, is on the plain of Corupedium. No longer as agile as his iconography and lacking his son and general Agathocles, Lysimachus met a similar fate to James Cagney. The question is always "why"?? Why set in train these events?

There is no sure answer to that. The Thunderbolt took care of the entirely untrustworthy Arsinoe though. Having married her (his half sister) in a dynastic marriage that would gain Macedonia, he sealed his short tenure in typical fashion: he murdered his only direct rivals. Unfortunately for Arsinoe these were her sons.

What goes around....
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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athenas owl
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by athenas owl »

It's definitely fun to speculate, but I'm waiting for more results.

I don't understand why it is considered a bad thing to be buried in the agora. That may have been a Greek taboo, but again the Macedonians were their own stylish selves, especially after their romp through Asia. Hephaistion was to have his memorial in the city, and at Ai Khanum, didn't Kineas have his own special spot, or precinct with his heroon? Though neither of those were the agora, true. I'd love to know THAT story. I guess it depends on who they are and their ages. What was the point being made? And who made it? Could it have been something like "Here arre the bones of Herakles and his mother! Let us honour them here in the heart of the ancient city of his fathers..and remmeber the perfidy of Polyperchon and Cassander!" Something like that.. :)

Till that time, lot's a speculative fun to be had by all. Though I do think that Tomb II is Philip III and his queen. Cassander would have gotten good cred for righting the wrong done to to that murdered couple by the dastardly Olympias. Just as I believe that the young prince in Tomb III is Alexander IV, Gonatas doing the same against the equally dastardly Cassander. Or even Demtrios Poliorketes, who may have enjoyed the grand gesture of something or other.

Were these burials in the agora unmarked originally? Or was there some monument, politically important at that moment, that was later removed or destroyed beyond all recognition when the powers that be didn't care anymore?

Karanos, if he existed, would have been mighty tinyat is death. If the bones were of an infant, then perhaps...though Tomb I as always struck me as the likely burial place for Philip and his last queen and her child. Am I so out of the loop that I am mistaking your Karanos reference? Wasn't Cleopatra/Eurydike murdered along with her child/children? That seems quite the "reprisal". Though I admit I may be completely out to lunch here and have forgotten some history I shouldn't.

If we are speculating, I'd like to think it does belong to Herakles and his mother. Maybe the qusiling Polyperchon, even though he murdered the boy and possibly his mother, may have felt enough guilt or shame to have interred their bones somewhere that could later be retrieved. His end is my favourite of them all...it is unknown. No one cared enough to even bother mentioning it (at least that survive to us)...unremarked...heh.

I also wish I could get consistent with my spelling of the people involved, I'm all over the Greek and Roman map when it comes to the spelling of their names.
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

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athenas owl wrote: Karanos, if he existed, would have been mighty tinyat is death. If the bones were of an infant, then perhaps....
I've always thought him unhistorical. Perhaps that led me to misread "Karanos" as "Keranos". To be frank, I was wondering just what Agesilaos was warbling about.

The real reason was wandering home from the local (it was Friday night...) after good fill of black beer. Still, a nice little tangent in the direction of Keranos is fun.

I have the paper here somewhere that discusses the conflicting and unsatisfactory "evidence" for Karanos. Can't remember who wroye it though.

Time to go plug in the Paralus' PEHD (Personal External Hard Drive)...
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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athenas owl
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by athenas owl »

Paralus wrote:
athenas owl wrote: Karanos, if he existed, would have been mighty tinyat is death. If the bones were of an infant, then perhaps....
I've always thought him unhistorical. Perhaps that led me to misread "Karanos" as "Keranos". To be frank, I was wondering just what Agesilaos was warbling about.

The real reason was wandering home from the local (it was Friday night...) after good fill of black beer. Still, a nice little tangent in the direction of Keranos is fun.

I have the paper here somewhere that discusses the conflicting and unsatisfactory "evidence" for Karanos. Can't remember who wroye it though.

Time to go plug in the Paralus' PEHD (Personal External Hard Drive)...
Ah, maybe it was Keranos. That would make more sense. Which leas me back to my plaintive mew about spellings. Caranus/Karanos...Keranos/Keraunos. PotAto/potahto. 8)


I sincerely doubt that the baby Karanos existed either.
agesilaos
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by agesilaos »

Yes, KARANOS not KERAUNOS; the evidence is distinctly flimsy but if he was a rival as Justin states then he was not the child of Eurydice/Kleopatra but from another of Philip's wives; we had a thread about it ages back 'Alexander's brothers?'. I was being sarcastic!

Lysimachos is my favourite diadoch so I'll leap to his defence later, Paralus, you inveterate Eumenid (please note in-VET-erate not in-VERT-ibrate, would not want to be accused of unforumlike language due to any mis-reading :twisted: )

Spelling Greek names is always a bit of a lottery depending on how far you latinise them and how you transliterate the characters; is chi 'ch' or is khi 'kh'? Then there are considerations of pronunciation over translitteration; gamma gamma is 'gg' but is pronounced 'ng' , beta is pronounced as a 'v'( one frequently sees this in literature about the Byzantines, oops Vyzantines!).
As T.E.Lawrence might have said 'Of course it hurts, the trick is not to care!'

Now for some further warbling:-

It always helps to read the full articles so having done so here is my guess.

The bodies were found in the rubble of the Temple of Eukleia, which was founded by Philip II’s mother, Eurydice. We have no date for her death but she surely predeceased her son, as she does not figure in the stories of his murder and funeral. She was Queen much earlier in the century but the burials contain late fourth century goods and so post date the building of the temple. An interment in a temple is far from being a mark of ill favour and it is not likely to be something that would escape notice.

To be buried in a Temple, however, the deceased ought to have a relevance to either the building, e.g. its founder, or the patron deity. Eukleia was the patron goddess of bridal glory and rectitude. This was close to Eurydice’s heart as she was accused of several affairs, most notably with Ptolemy Aloros.

Clearly she is not two corpses of a later date, however. It might well suit Philip III and his Eurydice, the synonymy may even have seemed fortuitous. Kassander would have good reason to promote Eurydice’s status as a good wife, there were rumours that he had known her favours. The tribute would have a point, we also know that Kassander reburied them, it need not have been in the tholos complex.

Roxane, as the dutiful wife of Alexander would be another possible, but the second corpse is a problem, it would be appropriate for a spouse to join a wife but not the son I think. Other candidates are made dubious by the fact that they are re-burials.

Until the sex and ages of the bodies is determined we are restricted to those who are appropriate to the Temple and likely to have been reburied. Nikaia the wife of Demetrios (by Demetrios himself or Gonatos) is another possible, or Thessalonike the murdered wife of Kassander (by Lysimachos?).

The copper vessels holding the second body seem reminiscent of Celtic practice so perhaps they date to the years of interregnum. Anymore before a mundane truth is Schliemanised?
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by athenas owl »

Well damn....I missed that final link in Andrew's post. To my shame. That one makes a whole lot more sense.
Drougou told The Associated Press that the fact the funerary urns were not placed in a proper grave "either indicates some form of punishment, or an illegal act."
That, from the first article is what I was going on. I can't fathom why Drougou would say such a thing, if the burials were in a temple, particularly a temple associated with the mother of Philip II, though that would reenforce, to me, a connection to the Argeads. And even it they weren't found in a necropolis, being reburied it seems, in the temple precincts, that doesn't mean it was a punitive or illegal act. Post Alexander, what may have been tradition before, would have been in flux..the enhanced influence from Asia. Especially if there was a connection to Demetrios, who happily adopted certain "less than Macedonian" habits of kingship. Though why would he choose a temple with such Argead connections? Roxane? That's an interesting thought.

It is entirely possible that the burials are not related, except in that they were reburied in the temple. A minor trend? As the Argead remnants were retrieved and given some respect after they no longer posed a threat. Heck, maybe one is Cleopatra, Alexander's sister. :)

I missed that about Karanos being named as the child of another of mother by Justin, or whatever he said.

Schliemanised? Love it! But ain't that half the fun? :wink:
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by Paralus »

agesilaos wrote:Lysimachos is my favourite diadoch so I'll leap to his defence later, Paralus, you inveterate Eumenid (please note in-VET-erate not in-VERT-ibrate, would not want to be accused of unforumlike language due to any mis-reading :twisted: )
I find that more humorous than Schliemanised. We've a new word although I'd think your application might be wrong. The current guesses are rather more redolent of Schlieman.

Rather than being an invertibrate I do believe I'd attained temporary membership of that Athenian tyrannical line: the Pissistratids.

Although the literary tradition is patchy and less than satisfactory - we lose Diodorus - it might be thought that such a reburial might have found its way to us in some form. I tend toward the reburial of Philip III being that of tomb II: Kassander was "appointed" by Eurydike and was looking for the full dividend; the "full royal" funerary rights will have provided same.
athenas owl wrote:Especially if there was a connection to Demetrios, who happily adopted certain "less than Macedonian" habits of kingship. Though why would he choose a temple with such Argead connections?
All the Diadoch dynasties stressed their claims to legitimacy and connections to the Aragead line. The Antigonids were no exception - right down to Philip V. Had Demetrius or Gonatas conducted such a reburial - of whoever it may be of some importance - we might have been informed. Although Plutarch might have thought Paraetecene of no importance, this is the sort of thing he might have recorded.

Lysimachus, it seems, had other matters on his mind(s) after the tripartite confrontation (Amphipolis c 287) that saw the end of the Macedonian ambitions his great enemy Demetrius. Lysimachus did not win that battle and Demetrius did not win the war nor did he secure the victory. In fact significant numbers of his troops deserted to the somatophylax and the rest decamped to the Eagle of Epirus at Veroia. It was this that Lysimachus played upon. Given Lysimachus’ adroit use of propaganda he’d not have reburied any Argead (or dynastically important) remains without taking out a full page add in the New York Times; particularly if it gave him leverage against Pyrrhus.

It is possible that these belong to a Celtic tradition but, again, why the temple? Gonatas might have been expected to "cleanse" such from the Macedonian fatherland after winning his spurs in battle against them.

I'm glad I got that typed. Off to a mate's 65th. The kraters will be full and little watering will be the order of the afternoon. Please delete anything I post in about five hours time: it is certain to be based upon something I’ll be in no condition to (mis)read...
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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jan
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Re: New graves found at Aegae

Post by jan »

To Andrew Chugg:

Thank you for the chapter on Barsine and Heracles. I am so impressed with your study of Barsine and Heracles that I want to commend you for such an excellent piece of research and explanation. I will certainly purchase the book when I can. I am just happy that I have finally read a chapter from it.

As for the debate about the urns that have been found it is simply too early to speculate. It sounds doubtful to me that they would be those of Heracles but only time will tell. Who would have been responsible for the remains of his body after he had been strangled by his enemies? I doubt very much that anyone would have bothered to give him a proper burial at all. The consequences of killing a Persian Prince though is something to consider. After all, Barsine is considered some kind of minor princess according to your article, and I would rather imagine that the Macedonians would have tried to hide his remains rather than give them any kind of recognition at all. But again, that is speculation.

I do believe that the gods would punish any who had dared to kill Alexander's offspring, and it appears that they did. Any issue stemming from Hercules should be punished, don't you think? I wonder at their state of minds now.

By the way, I was looking at the search for Alexander at the Louvre Museum, meaning a search through the museum for statuary and artifacts about Alexander. I truly enjoyed that online discovery as I am going to Paris in October and will certainly be looking for everything pertaining to Alexander at both the Louvre and the Chateau du Versailles.

Thanks again, Andrew. I gained a lot of valuable information from your article.

with great respect,

Jan
J
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