Macedonian Queens

Discuss Alexander's generals, wives, lovers, family and enemies

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Alexias
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Macedonian Queens

Post by Alexias »

Does anyone know please if there is any contemporaneous reference to Olympias as Philip’s queen? (I don’t mean the Alexander sources which might be corrupted by Roman ideas on monogamy.) Or was she simply ‘first wife’ by virtue of being the mother of the heir? Or did her royal background make her the most important of Philip’s wives, and consequently queen?

Similarly, does anyone know if Roxane was ever regarded contemporaneously as Alexander’s queen? Or was she just a campaign wife?
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marcus
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by marcus »

Alexias wrote:Does anyone know please if there is any contemporaneous reference to Olympias as Philip’s queen? (I don’t mean the Alexander sources which might be corrupted by Roman ideas on monogamy.) Or was she simply ‘first wife’ by virtue of being the mother of the heir? Or did her royal background make her the most important of Philip’s wives, and consequently queen?

Similarly, does anyone know if Roxane was ever regarded contemporaneously as Alexander’s queen? Or was she just a campaign wife?
Hi Alexias,

Interesting question. I have to confess that I'm not sure, but having trawled through my digest of references I can't find any contemporary reference (which would, basically, have to be an inscription if it were not in a speech). There is a reference in Aeschines' "Against Ctesiphon", but it doesn't refer to her as Philip's queen. I don't have a copy of Demosthenes' speeches to know if there's anything there.

We do know that Olympias appeared in a family group of statues at the Philippeum at Olympia - that's the best I can do at the moment.

Similarly for Roxane, I haven't yet found anything contemporary - I suspect it's even less likely.

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Alexias
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Alexias »

Thank you. I think it was Nicholas Hammond who proposed the idea that the insult offered to Olympias on Philip’s marriage to Cleopatra was her re-naming as Eurydike (as Philip’s mother), so perhaps a royal name was more important in terms of rank and the title of queen wasn’t relevant in Macedonian terms.

Similarly, if the younger Stateira was originally named Barsine (maybe the equivalent of ‘princess’), and was given a royal name on her marriage, maybe the fact that Roxanne doesn’t appear to have been given a marriage name signifies that she wasn’t regarded as a royal wife.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Paralus »

Alexias wrote:Similarly, if the younger Stateira was originally named Barsine (maybe the equivalent of ‘princess’), and was given a royal name on her marriage, maybe the fact that Roxanne doesn’t appear to have been given a marriage name signifies that she wasn’t regarded as a royal wife.
Kings took, it seems, regnal names on occasion. Royal women seem to have done so as well. Both cases that come immediately to mind are in the maelstrom of Diadoch politics and war.

Actions, though, always speak louder than words. That Perdiccas - and others - could base a claim for power on the the regency for the unborn child of Roxanne indicates that the child was a royal offspring - the xenophobic tendencies of the phalanx infantry aside. Indeed the sources refer to Alexander IV as basileus (along with Arrhidaeus) and regnal years are dated for him in Babylon. That being the case, the mother was a "royal" mother and a fully legitimate wife.

The same would apply for Olympias with the slight difference that she - until the closing years of Philip's reign - was the "primary" wife or "Queen Mother" of the heir apparent and the most powerful woman at court. It is well to remember that Olympias carried great influence and power in the vacuum following her son's death. Many Macedonians flocked to her in the death struggle with Cassander when she returned to Macedonia with Polyperchon. The legitimacy of both herself and the offspring of Roxanne is demonstrated in the below (Diod 18.59.3; 62.2):
Antigenes and Teutamus, the leaders of the Silver Shields, in obedience to the letters of the kings, came from a considerable distance to meet Eumenes and his friends.After bidding him welcome and congratulating him on his unexpected escape from very great dangers, they promised to co‑operate willingly with him in everything [...] At Eumenes' unexpected and sudden rise to power, Ptolemy, who had sailed to Zephyrium in Cilicia with a fleet, kept sending to the commanders of the Silver Shields, exhorting them not to pay any attention to Eumenes, whom all the Macedonians had condemned to death. Likewise he sent to those who had been placed in command of the garrisons in Cyinda, protesting solemnly against their giving any of the money to Eumenes, and promised to guarantee their safety. But no one paid any attention to him because the kings and Polyperchon their guardian and also Olympias, the mother of Alexander, had written to them that they should serve Eumenes in every way, since he was the commander-in‑chief of the kingdom.
Alexander's former hypaspists and "professional citizen troops" seemed to harbour no doubts as to the status of either Olympias or Alexander IV or - by extension - his mother. Whatever either of the women were called or referred to, the import was the same: they were "royal mothers" and legitimate bearers of heirs to the kingdom.
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Alexias
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Alexias »

Thank you. I think what I was trying to get at was whether there was a pre-determined role granted to Olympias, automatically giving her prestige and precedence over Philip’s other wives, rather than what accrued to her as the mother of the heir presumptive and what she appropriated to herself through the force of her character. I think the latter two were far more important once Alexander became king when she may have appropriated the title of queen if it wasn’t already hers.

Also, I wasn’t questioning the legitimacy of Roxane’s marriage, but whether Stateira would automatically have taken precedence over her among Alexander’s wives. I was trying to work out whether Roxane’s status after Alexander’s death increased, largely due to Perdiccas and her pregnancy, or whether she already out-ranked Stateira.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by athenas owl »

Alexias, I wonder if Stateira was indeed the "chief" queen, her marriage was certainly celebrated in royal fashion. If she wasn't pregnant when she was murdered (who really knows, and there was no one to tell her story...) her rank alone may have threatened Roxane and or Perdiccas.

I have heard opinions that it wasn't Drypetis, but Parysatis who was killed with her. Most likely they all were...the historians, men, didn't seem to care what happened to the women except as they were needed to continue the narrative, usually as something sinister, etc.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Alexias »

Hello, I think Stateira certainly would have outranked Roxane once she produced a Persian heir. However, I am of the opinion that the reason Alexander didn’t marry Stateira after Issus was that she and Drypetis were still children. I believe they were left behind after the weddings at Susa, which may have been because they were still quite young. With Alexander’s known respect for women, he may not therefore have tried to get her pregnant. I also think that Perdiccas, rather than Roxane, had the girls murdered, not because they were pregnant but because if a Persian decided to rebel, marrying Darius’ daughter(s) would greatly strengthen his claim to the throne of Asia.

I didn’t know that about Parysatis, though I’ve wondered what happened to her. However, I don’t believe Mary Renault’s guess that Roxane murdered Drypetis out of jealousy of Hephaestion!

The reason I doubt Roxane’s involvement in the murders, though it may have been done in her name, is that I don’t know of any other use of her power. She seems rather to have been a pawn than a power in her own right.

PS Another reason the girls may have been left behind at Susa was company for Sisygambis, whose health may have been deteriorating and she may have been too ill or frail to travel, given how quickly she died after Alexander's death.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by athenas owl »

Good popints about the girls being left behind, though we really don't know how young they were.

I think that Alexander left them behind to learn Greek, etc....and I really do believe he did not intend to be gone so long. Things had gone at quite a great pace as conquest goes when he left them at Susa (always interesting to me that he left them somewhere before Persepolis, not wanting I think to leave yhem in the heart of the empire and possibly because he already planned to raze at least part of the platform ( I came across something Jona Lendering wrote on his blog about that..), he didn't foresee getting bogged down in upper Iran as long as he did. Six years or so until he returned to Susa.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by marcus »

Alexias wrote:I didn’t know that about Parysatis, though I’ve wondered what happened to her. However, I don’t believe Mary Renault’s guess that Roxane murdered Drypetis out of jealousy of Hephaestion!
Indeed - this is Renault's romantic nonsense. I would be surprised if Roxane had cared two hoots about whatever relationship Alexander had with Hephaistion, and why any jealousy should have extended to Hephaistion's wife is mystifying.

As for the girls staying in Susa - they were to be educated in the "Greek" way, and they couldn't be expected to travel around with the army while Alexander was still chasing after their father. Better to have kept them safe and protected/guarded in an area that had already submitted. Companionship for the queen mother is unlikely to have been the primary reason for keeping them in Susa.

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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Semiramis »

Alexias wrote:Hello, I think Stateira certainly would have outranked Roxane once she produced a Persian heir. However, I am of the opinion that the reason Alexander didn’t marry Stateira after Issus was that she and Drypetis were still children. I believe they were left behind after the weddings at Susa, which may have been because they were still quite young. With Alexander’s known respect for women, he may not therefore have tried to get her pregnant.
Hi Alexias,

I think there was a minimum age of marriage for Persian women. So, I'm inclined to agree with you that the daughters of Darius were too young for marriage when left behind. Also agree that any heir produced by Stateira would have been more acceptable to the Persian elite then any other children of Alexander. The marriage to Roxanne may have been love or military desperation in Bactria, but I think Alexander was well aware of the value of any heir produced by Strateira early on in his campaign. Previous Achaemenid Kings like Darius (the Great) and Xerxes had strengthened their claim to the throne through marrying Achaemenid women or through the mother's line.

Persian royal women seem to have been players in their own right during the Achaemenid times. If not Roxanne, then Strateira/Barsine and Drypetis would have likely had influence in the happenings after Aleaxander's death had they been not murdered (pure speculation here :) ).
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by marcus »

Semiramis wrote:Also agree that any heir produced by Stateira would have been more acceptable to the Persian elite then any other children of Alexander. The marriage to Roxanne may have been love or military desperation in Bactria, but I think Alexander was well aware of the value of any heir produced by Strateira early on in his campaign.
Although you might be right about the Persian elite, I don't think we should under-estimate the importance of Oxyartes (and, consequently, the pedigree of Roxane). We are always given the impression that Oxyartes was a mere "warlord" - little more than a robber baron - and yet he had enough influence in what had proven to be a terribly difficult and fractious part of the empire to be left in charge when Alexander left. Anyone who could keep Bactria/Sogdia relatively peaceful and loyal was not a person to be taken lightly!
Persian royal women seem to have been players in their own right during the Achaemenid times. If not Roxanne, then Strateira/Barsine and Drypetis would have likely had influence in the happenings after Aleaxander's death had they been not murdered (pure speculation here :) ).
Players in their own right inasmuch as they could own property and could become wealthy, and could perhaps have some influence on the menfolk; but I would suggest that any influence Stateira and/or Drypetis might have exercised over the Macedonians, had they survived, would have been negligible at best. Roxane exercised no influence whatsoever, and she had even given birth to the future king!

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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Alexias »

athenas owl wrote: he didn't foresee getting bogged down in upper Iran as long as he did. Six years or so until he returned to Susa.
Yes, I think Cleitus' murder had a lot to do with sheer frustration. Alexander, I suspect, got impatient when things didn't happen quickly.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Alexias »

marcus wrote: As for the girls staying in Susa - they were to be educated in the "Greek" way, and they couldn't be expected to travel around with the army while Alexander was still chasing after their father. Better to have kept them safe and protected/guarded in an area that had already submitted. Companionship for the queen mother is unlikely to have been the primary reason for keeping them in Susa.

ATB
Sorry, I meant after the marriages. Surely the army then was on home territory and there would be no reason they could not travel in safety to the summer residence at Ecbatana, or to Babylon. Unless for some reason Alexander felt they would be safer at Susa? Perhaps things were still unsettled after the purges and Alexander feared a potential rebellion.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by Alexias »

Semiramis wrote:
Persian royal women seem to have been players in their own right during the Achaemenid times. If not Roxanne, then Strateira/Barsine and Drypetis would have likely had influence in the happenings after Aleaxander's death had they been not murdered (pure speculation here :) ).
Thank you, yes, it's interesting to note that Stateira appears to have been betrothed to Mazaeus the satrap of Babylon at some point. I can only think that Darius promised her to Mazaeus (even though she was in Alexander's hands) to secure his support before Gaugamela. Didn't really work, though, unless the breakthough to the baggage train was an attempt to rescue the women and when it failed, that was the point at which Mazaeus decided to withdraw as it wasn't worth him staying any more.
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Re: Macedonian Queens

Post by athenas owl »

Alexias wrote:
marcus wrote: As for the girls staying in Susa - they were to be educated in the "Greek" way, and they couldn't be expected to travel around with the army while Alexander was still chasing after their father. Better to have kept them safe and protected/guarded in an area that had already submitted. Companionship for the queen mother is unlikely to have been the primary reason for keeping them in Susa.

ATB
Sorry, I meant after the marriages. Surely the army then was on home territory and there would be no reason they could not travel in safety to the summer residence at Ecbatana, or to Babylon. Unless for some reason Alexander felt they would be safer at Susa? Perhaps things were still unsettled after the purges and Alexander feared a potential rebellion.
Thing is...we do not know if they didn't indeed do that exact thing! Susa sounds like it was miserable in the summer (wasn't it Nearchus who mentioned the streets so hot that that lizards fried or something?). What the ladies were up to while Alexander was elsewhere was of no interest to the male writers of the tale.
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