Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Discuss Alexander's generals, wives, lovers, family and enemies

Moderator: pothos moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
rocktupac
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:52 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by rocktupac »

There were many account that said Alexander fell 'in love' with Roxana at first sight (Arrian 4.19; Plutarch Alex. 47.7; Curtius 8.4.25). Although Plutarch and Curtius disagree as to how they were first introduced, and Arrian's love story comes from "the men who served in Alexander's army," it is quite certain that the two were married: Alexander was king and Roxana was his queen. And for this discussion that is all that matters.

Since there is no evidence which suggests that Alexander learned any of the languages spoken in the regions he conquered, how was it possible for Alexander and Roxana to have spoken to one another? This questions may seem like it has a simple answer: either Roxana spoke Greek or they used a translator constantly. Both seem plausible; but since neither is mentioned in the sources, I am left to wonder.

Roxana is mentioned about a half dozen times in Arrian, about the same in Justin (and mostly after Alexander is dead), twice in Plutarch, and a slight handful of times in Curtius. Diodorus alone is silent due to a loss of his writings. That leaves us with about 20 or so references (I haven't got an exact figure) of Roxana from the extant Alexander sources.

Due to the lack of mentions of Roxana, and the loads of references we have to Olympias (relatively speaking), when we figure in the total number of times Alexander actually dealt with Roxana, exactly how important was she? What was her role? Moreover, if her role as the queen to a Macedonian king was typical, what does this tell us about her/the role of Macedonian queen?

After all, if they couldn't communicate with one another, just how important was she???
-Scott B.
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by agesilaos »

Politically she was important in that the marriage brought an end to the guerilla war in Sogdia; that the marriage was no cypher may be inferred from the reported still birth of a son on the Indus (Metz Ep. 70) and the fact that she was heavy with Alexander IV when Alexander III died shows that she had not been cast off for that failure. She certainly seems to have felt a loss of status after the Susa marriages if Plutarch's story of the letter to Barsine is to be believed, much like Olympias had upon the advent of Euridike, thus supporting the theory that history repeats itself.

During this period she communicated with Perdikkas on secret matters which would have been suicidal to entrust to the ears of any translator so we may assume that by 323 she had learned Greek, as only Peukestas is singled out as having learned Persian he must be unique. Having said that Alexander's admiration implies that he himself had acquired the language; no courtier would dare outshine the new God and what would stir a paranoid mind more than being able to communicate secretly with the Persians who were now surrounding Alexander. It is in aping his master that Peukestas wins his laurels not in showing any initiative.

I do not think that Roxane was the spur for Alexander learning Persian, however, he had kept Barsine ex wife of Memnon and Mentor as a mistress since Issos and Bagoas in a related station since Dareios' death he would surely have recognised the advantage of understanding his subjects' language at an early stage. The Sisines' conspiracy may have provided a spur whether he instigated it or not, it seems that Alexander Lyncestis was undone by his lack of Persian and possibly manipulated into an apparent treason; Alexander the king would not wish to put himself at a similar disadvantage. Actual evidence will have to wait a trawl through the sources but such niceties may be ignored by them, or glossed over.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
Alexias
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1103
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by Alexias »

Would Roxane even have spoken Persian, or did the Sogdians have a different language? Darius's daughters were taught Greek while they remained at Susa, so it is likely Roxane was taught Greek, probably by Barsine who, although Persian, was the widow of two Greeks.
User avatar
rocktupac
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:52 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by rocktupac »

Alexias wrote:Would Roxane even have spoken Persian, or did the Sogdians have a different language? Darius's daughters were taught Greek while they remained at Susa, so it is likely Roxane was taught Greek, probably by Barsine who, although Persian, was the widow of two Greeks.
Even if she was taught Greek, there are only a couple times where Alexander is actually mentioned with her; and perhaps not even speaking with her! Off the top of my head, I can't think of a time (from the extant sources) where Alexander and Roxana have a conversation/exchange dialogue.
-Scott B.
User avatar
amyntoros
Somatophylax
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:51 pm
Location: New York City

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by amyntoros »

rocktupac wrote:Due to the lack of mentions of Roxana, and the loads of references we have to Olympias (relatively speaking), when we figure in the total number of times Alexander actually dealt with Roxana, exactly how important was she? What was her role? Moreover, if her role as the queen to a Macedonian king was typical, what does this tell us about her/the role of Macedonian queen?

I'm not sure that the circumstances allow us to use Roxana to assess the role of Macedonian queens. Roxana accompanied the army on their most brutal campaigns and because of the nature of the fighting in India I suspect she wasn't even housed close to Alexander for much of the time. And surely she was shipped back to the west with Craterus rather than accompanying Alexander through Gedrosia? All of this adds up to comparatively little time spent with the king, IMO, and it might also explain the lack of further pregnancies until the end of Alexander's reign.

Best regards,
Amyntoros

Pothos Lunch Room Monitor
Semiramis
Hetairos (companion)
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:24 pm

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by Semiramis »

rocktupac wrote:Due to the lack of mentions of Roxana, and the loads of references we have to Olympias (relatively speaking), when we figure in the total number of times Alexander actually dealt with Roxana, exactly how important was she? What was her role? Moreover, if her role as the queen to a Macedonian king was typical, what does this tell us about her/the role of Macedonian queen?
I see Roxanne's role more as a Persian queen than a Macedonian one. Doesn't Plutarch mention something about the marriage as a means to please Alexander's Persian subjects?
Alexias wrote:Would Roxane even have spoken Persian, or did the Sogdians have a different language? Darius's daughters were taught Greek while they remained at Susa, so it is likely Roxane was taught Greek, probably by Barsine who, although Persian, was the widow of two Greeks.
A third possibility is that the nobility in the Eastern parts of the Achaemenid empire learned Persian or even spoke exclusively in Persian. Class may be a major factor here as well as geography.

If Roxanne wanted to learn Greek, I'm sure there were plenty of paid tutors or Greek slaves etc. available. Translators were an integral part of the running of the Achaemenid empire. I find it unlikely that Alexander's honoured mistress Barsine would have stooped to such a job. No more than Sisygambis would have spent her time weaving. ;)
User avatar
rocktupac
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:52 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by rocktupac »

amyntoros wrote:
rocktupac wrote:Due to the lack of mentions of Roxana, and the loads of references we have to Olympias (relatively speaking), when we figure in the total number of times Alexander actually dealt with Roxana, exactly how important was she? What was her role? Moreover, if her role as the queen to a Macedonian king was typical, what does this tell us about her/the role of Macedonian queen?

I'm not sure that the circumstances allow us to use Roxana to assess the role of Macedonian queens. Roxana accompanied the army on their most brutal campaigns and because of the nature of the fighting in India I suspect she wasn't even housed close to Alexander for much of the time. And surely she was shipped back to the west with Craterus rather than accompanying Alexander through Gedrosia? All of this adds up to comparatively little time spent with the king, IMO, and it might also explain the lack of further pregnancies until the end of Alexander's reign.

Best regards,
Well, not Macedonian by customs or ethnic background. I meant that if Alexander expected Roxana to play the part of a Macedonian queen, and Roxana in fact did, then she more than likely would have received much more attention by the ancient authors than she did. Which I guess brings me back to my first question: just how important was she?

If she had not given birth to a legitimate son of Alexander's, I just wonder how big of a role she would have played in the 'falling in love' with Alexander story and her being one of the most beautiful women in Asia? If it was another of Alexander's wives, and NOT Roxana who gave birth to a legitimate son, would they have been involved in an elaborate (and near mythic) 'meeting' rather than Roxana? Would Roxana have faded from existence? I know these are a lot of 'What ifs?' but I think they should be asked if we are to understand the role/importance of Roxana in the bigger picture of things.
-Scott B.
User avatar
rocktupac
Pezhetairos (foot soldier)
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:52 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by rocktupac »

Semiramis wrote: I see Roxanne's role more as a Persian queen than a Macedonian one. Doesn't Plutarch mention something about the marriage as a means to please Alexander's Persian subjects?
Plutarch Alex. 47.7-8:
[7] His marriage to Roxana, whom he saw in her youthful beauty taking part in a dance at a banquet, was a love affair, and yet it was thought to harmonize well with the matters which he had in hand. [8] For the Barbarians were encouraged by the partnership into which the marriage brought them, and they were beyond measure fond of Alexander, because, most temperate of all men that he was in these matters, he would not consent to approach even the only woman who ever mastered his affections, without the sanction of law.
-Scott B.
agesilaos
Strategos (general)
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:16 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by agesilaos »

There is a recorded exchange in the sources; in the Metz Epitome (or Liber de Morte) if you choose to break the narrative into two, Alexander reproaches Roxane for thwarting his plan to disappear and she is told later to place herself in Perdikkas' care. Even if this is dismissed as history, the original was close in time to Alexander so that communication between them must have seemed realistic.

Questions of importance tend to founder on the rock of the sources Alexandrocentricity, one may ask how important any of the Marshals were but it is in vain to search the sources for explicit statements, there all the decisions are Alexander's with occaisional nods to advice. All we can work on are the actions of these players after his death. Roxane does not emerge as a power even under Perdikkas' wing, after a spiteful murder being laid at her door she becomes first Olympias' cypher and then Kassandros' this speaks of a lack of a strong voice and so little influence but this need not be taken as typical of Macedonian nor indeed of Persian Queens; she was but a girl from the hills despised by the old-guard as a foreign subject, envied by the new-men as Alexander's companion and probably looked down on by his Persian clique as a bandit's daughter; she had no strong hand to play once Sogdiania was pacified, one may even doubt if she had any influence with her own father, Oxyartes surely married her off to secure his own influence not to endow her with any. Such is the fate of women in a man's world - ultimately even Olympias had to know her place :twisted:
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
jan
Strategos (general)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:29 pm

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by jan »

Oh dear, Scott, it all depends upon who tells the story. I have read stories that it is Roxane who is responsible for the defeat of Porus. Alexander could not possibly have won many of his battles in Sogdiana and India were it not for Roxanne's intervention. These are stories told by her supprters naturally. Have you not read those too?

This is one of the reasons I find it irresponsible not to understand what it means to see Alexander only through the so called extant sources. It does seem strange that while the sources do show that Alexander is a sympathizer to women, that he does try to protect them, to defend them, to befriend them, so many in his life from Olympias to Sisygambis, to Barsine, to the woman who adopted him (having a block about her name right now), the Amazon Queen, to even Statira, his last wife, that they do not develop the romance between him and his true love.

Perhaps the historians did not include her in the journals so as not to arouse the anger or jealousy of Alexander. Any number of reasons possible.

I believe that your question about communication between the two is interesting, as the spark of love came from the heart more than from the tongue. I do believe that Alexander did fall in love with Roxanne at first sight and loved her til his death. Likewise, she jealously loved him and protected him. Like with most lovers, they probably knew how to communicate one on one with each other as romantically as a Hollywood kiss! I rather fancy that Alexander is a great lover with women! But he is discreet, isn't he?
:wink:
User avatar
marcus
Somatophylax
Posts: 4787
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:27 am
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: Communication between Alexander and Roxana

Post by marcus »

jan wrote:Oh dear, Scott, it all depends upon who tells the story. I have read stories that it is Roxane who is responsible for the defeat of Porus. Alexander could not possibly have won many of his battles in Sogdiana and India were it not for Roxanne's intervention. These are stories told by her supprters naturally. Have you not read those too?

This is one of the reasons I find it irresponsible not to understand what it means to see Alexander only through the so called extant sources. It does seem strange that while the sources do show that Alexander is a sympathizer to women, that he does try to protect them, to defend them, to befriend them, so many in his life from Olympias to Sisygambis, to Barsine, to the woman who adopted him (having a block about her name right now), the Amazon Queen, to even Statira, his last wife, that they do not develop the romance between him and his true love.

Perhaps the historians did not include her in the journals so as not to arouse the anger or jealousy of Alexander. Any number of reasons possible.

I believe that your question about communication between the two is interesting, as the spark of love came from the heart more than from the tongue. I do believe that Alexander did fall in love with Roxanne at first sight and loved her til his death. Likewise, she jealously loved him and protected him. Like with most lovers, they probably knew how to communicate one on one with each other as romantically as a Hollywood kiss! I rather fancy that Alexander is a great lover with women! But he is discreet, isn't he?
:wink:
Er ... OK. Some very nice romantic speculation, Jan, but not particularly helpful without anything to back it up.

By the way, they are "so called" extant sources because they are ... well ... extant.

ATB
Marcus
Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago
At Amazon US
At Amazon UK
Post Reply