The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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Zebedee
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Why are you posting (unattributed) Roman exemplars Andrew? They're nice, they're lovely in fact. But they don't even show what you want them to. To be clear : the point being made is that a crescent shaped garland attached by a piece of string around a bull's neck is weird to the point of being imaginary. The Roman examples actually make the point further - the garland is clearly visible going over the shoulders or around the neck of the bull. A circle doesn't magically turn into a crescent just before it should be shown going round a bull's neck!

Look at the real life bull. Look at where the wreath sits. Now try and imagine how to get that to look like a crescent on its chest alone short of displaying an absolute ignorance of perspective.

That's my point. If the crescent thing is a garland, it's a darned odd one and actually more resembles the necklace on an apis bull. So. Other explanations needed for those who want to see a garland in that shape. Either the shape is wrong, or it's very likely not a garland.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:The woman on the right side of the bull is as shown in the images below. Note the huge hips - not appropriate for a man, unless an Amarna king! She is not facing towards us, but away from us and her face is three-quarters averted and glancing slightly towards the bull. She is not scantily clad, but wears a full length, fairly tight fitting whitish dress with a kind of chiton or peplos in yellow over the torso and hips. There is a red belt (so she is the counterpart of the man on the left side of the bull, who is facing towards us) and a diagonal ribbon of cloth, much as seen on the line of priestesses from Samothrace or the Caryatids from the Amphipolis Tomb. She has long reddish hair but it is piled up onto the top of her head. It is she rather than the bull that is at the centre of the frieze. This is not an accident. Instead it should mean that she is a depiction of the principal occupant of the tomb participating in the bull sacrifice on Samothrace. She is also moving towards the chamber containing her grave, because of the situation of the frieze above its portal.
Problem is, as portrayed in your drawing, the woman is not ancient Greek. "Fairly tight fitting" is not ever a description one would use to describe any woman's garment of the period. She could be Louise Brooks from the rear, however ...

Image

Or Angelina Jolie who insisted that her original, ancient inspired costumes for ATG be replaced because they were not "sexy enough".

Image

And, quite frankly, those hips and rear end are worthy of Kim Kardashian. Not exactly the image one would want to present of an elderly, religious queen, wife of one of Macedonia's greatest kings and mother of the other. Certainly not in her own tomb!

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

amyntoros wrote:Problem is, as portrayed in your drawing, the woman is not ancient Greek. "Fairly tight fitting" is not ever a description one would use to describe any woman's garment of the period. She could be Louise Brooks from the rear, however ...

And, quite frankly, those hips and rear end are worthy of Kim Kardashian. Not exactly the image one would want to present of an elderly, religious queen, wife of one of Macedonia's greatest kings and mother of the other. Certainly not in her own tomb!
I already tried to explain further, but here goes again: she is dancing into the frieze (i.e. almost directly away from us. Her left leg is striding ahead of her. There is a hint that her right leg is actually lifted off the ground within the dress canopy. It was wrong for me to say that her dress is tight fitting. It is more accurate to say that the dress is stretched forward into the frieze by her left leg and back towards us by her right leg, so it is effectively narrowed in cross section across the frieze by the stretching. She is very reminiscent of the dancers on the throne of Eurydice from Aegae.

There are actually quite clear folds and pleats still visible in the lower dress area once you have recognised that she is wearing a dress. The diagonal band from right shoulder to left hip is really quite unmistakeable once you have seen it. The right shoulder area makes no sense without it - that is how I first saw it. There are faint traces of yellow below the band and above the belt, so she is clearly wearing one of these diagonally rimmed peplos type garments that we see on the Caryatids and the Samothracian dancers etc.

As I have also said a few times: these are the Mysteries of Samothrace. This is the meeting of Olympias and Philip II, so she is aged in her teens or early twenties in this scene. Her hips are not disproportionate for a young slim woman. There is some perspective too: her hips are a bit closer towards us.

I am showing ancient bull sacrifices. There is no great distinction to be drawn between Roman period bull sacrifices and Hellenistic bull sacrifices. I am a bit puzzled that Zebedee can now see a crescent shaped wreath, but cannot see that it is a complete ring in that it goes behind the bull's relatively thick neck. The wreath is not visible now as strong lines, so it is very hard to see where it finishes exactly - it is more like a ring of haze around the bull's neck. Perhaps Zebedee is just looking at the strong lines and patches.

Regards,

Andrew
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Taphoi wrote:
I am showing ancient bull sacrifices. There is no great distinction to be drawn between Roman period bull sacrifices and Hellenistic bull sacrifices. I am a bit puzzled that Zebedee can now see a crescent shaped wreath, but cannot see that it is a complete ring in that it goes behind the bull's relatively thick neck. The wreath is not visible now as strong lines, so it is very hard to see where it finishes exactly - it is more like a ring of haze around the bull's neck. Perhaps Zebedee is just looking at the strong lines and patches.

Regards,

Andrew
I'm looking at your interpretation and saying it's nonsensical Andrew. If you want to change that interpretation and draw more lines and do more colouring in, fine, I'm sure you can find a way to have it as whatever you want. But you cannot draw a crescent on a bull's chest, call it a garland and expect people to take your interpretation seriously. Two seconds thought, or if required practical trial with a scarf around your own neck in front of a mirror, should really be sufficient to realise that there's something wrong with what you're trying to claim.

And you're showing Roman bull sacrifices and Roman wall decorations, yes. And they demonstrate, even using them as models, that your current portrayal is at best misleadingly incomplete and at worst a complete fiction as you draw in what you wish to see.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Paralus »

Zebedee wrote:And they demonstrate, even using them as models, that your current portrayal is at best misleadingly incomplete and at worst a complete fiction as you draw in what you wish to see.
Indeed. I am minded of an earlier remark:
Taphoi wrote: There's none so blind as he who will not see :D
Which might now be better rendered as...There is none so blind as he who he sees only what he wishes to see. A trait that suffuses Andrew's arguments here and at Academia.com.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

Amyntoros wrote:
And, quite frankly, those hips and rear end are worthy of Kim Kardashian. Not exactly the image one would want to present of an elderly, religious queen, wife of one of Macedonia's greatest kings and mother of the other. Certainly not in her own tomb!
Moreover would one portray "the star of the show" from behind, with her faace anonymously invisible? This is ancient Greece, not the 'red carpet pose' of a shot of a backless dress, with the star looking coyly over the shoulder that is such a cliche now.......

The anonymous woman/dancer/whaever is just that......

The meeting of Philip and Olympias??? :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Is Philip meant to be the figure to the left of the bull? That figure lokks female to me, though it is too indeterminate to be sure.....

More 'Rohrschach visions'......

Moreover, as I mentioned bull sacrifice on Samothrace was apparently an innovation of Roman times, and not hard to see why. Samothrace - a steep mountainous rock, the highest of the Aegean, could not support cattle - so any bull sacrifice would have to have been imported by ship......
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Even if one doesn't buy that this is Dionysos in bull form, bull sacrifice was known as part of the Dionysian cult - in fact, the reverse of one of the vases Andrew posted, displaying a bull being sacrificed by a woman (actually a wingless Nike according to the British Museum if I remember correctly), portrays Dionysos with his staff receiving a libation.

Does anyone know when the first portrayals of Dionysos with a young (beardless) and old (bearded) centaur date from? There's the (early 2nd century AD) supposed copies of Greek originals with the Furietti centaurs in Rome itself, and I've posted one example from 1st century BC. But anything from 3rd century BC or earlier?

The earliest beardless centaur I can think of would be from Carrey's 1674 drawing of the South Metopes of the Parthenon. He has number 27 (now absent its head so unverifiable) as being without a beard.

Image

So a beardless centaur may be a possibility for the figure on the right. I am intrigued by the 'strap' seeming to go over the figure's chest. Especially given what is in the hand of the younger Furietti centaur.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

Here is the Taranto Maenad - a Hellenistic (dated to roughly 3rd century BC) terracotta statuette in a similar pose, with a similar hairstyle, a similar diagonal chest strap and similar (but slightly hitched up by her hand) dress to the woman in the Amphipolis Tomb frieze. There are plenty of other examples of similar dancing women from the period, where there is a narrowing of the dress around the knees and a flaring around the feet. It is an absolutely standard depiction, with no artistic difficulties (as opposed to centaurs with minuscule hooves and absent hindquarters and gold crescent bling and diagonal chest straps :D ). You can confirm by measurement if you wish that her hips are in the same proportion to her waist as the woman in the frieze.
Nice that some have managed to spot the diagonal strap now. Has anybody actually found a diagonal chest strap on an ancient centaur? Not saying that such a thing cannot be found, but it would appear to be unusual, whereas we have other women wearing similar chest straps to the woman in the frieze just a few metres away in the same tomb!
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Nice that some have managed to spot the diagonal strap now.
Not a case of 'managed to spot'. More a case of whether it's there or not.

As for portrayal of centaurs and things on their chests, here's Chiron with wee Achilles wearing clothes! The horror.

Image

(5th century BC, Louvre)

And I've posted this previously in the thread. Because it amuses me, but mainly because of what's on it.

Image

(c.410 BC - 400 BC, Louvre).

But centaurs, something on chest, sure, that's silly to doubt that. More interesting question is it even a strap, or could it be a branch [edit: probably should explain this. What if it's the figure's right arm being held diagonally across their chest and thus placing the hand directly in line with the hand above its head? Would that not imply something being held?], or...? Agnostic on possibilities. Really does depend on what is being portrayed and how and from what angle. :)

Would be happy enough to see a dancer if I thought one were there - whether similar to the example Gepd posted or anyone else. Just so happens the dancer interpretation shown on this thread looks like it's ignoring lots of strong lines it otherwise follows until they start shaping a centaur's hindquarters whilst colouring in inconvenient details.

Amusing thing is that one can have dancers or centaurs and it still fits Dionysos as a theme in this section. Even Corso doesn't try to make the Macedonian link to its exclusion here.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote: Has anybody actually found a diagonal chest strap on an ancient centaur?
Image
Dionysos and Ariadne pulled by centaurs, 230-235

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Taphoi »

So it seems we have found that centaurs might wear diagonal straps, but only as harnesses when they are drawing carriages. But if those were centaurs in the frieze, there is no way they could be pulling carriages, so the examples found themselves militate against the possibility that there are centaurs in the frieze.

Back to the garland. Since it seems futile to make a pictorial argument it words, here is the garland made plain in image form.

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Zebedee »

Better because the amount of green fuzzes over the clear crescent shape and makes a U shape as I suggested to you a few pages back. :) But still doesn't work as the shape assumes the bull is being viewed front on. When you view a bull front on, you don't see its flank. The perspective is being misunderstood - as shown by the clumsy attempt to re-place the right foreleg. Where you're drawing the left side of the garland (as we view it) is actually fairly clearly a continuation down from the bull's neck and makes its right shoulder and chest. That's why your garland there looks like its going through the bull's neck. :oops:

edit: just to say again, if there is a garland there it needs to resemble something like I painted on a few pages back and cross that nearside shoulder and go around. It's easy enough to draw it in along 'lines', but whether it's there or not... Lefantzis says its a crescent shape on the chest and not a garland so one would suspect the UV results are not encouraging for seeing a garland.

---

Time for some Hellenistic bling? How's about this for a bridle ;)

Image

(4th or 3rd century BC (supposedly), bronze, formerly Axel Guttman Collection)

Just a curious piece, and would welcome more detail on it just from personal curiosity, Lefantzis has gold shapes on both figures and the bull. Bronze tack is clearly known, as are bronze and silver decorations for it. Does one scale up to gold for divinity? And if not harness then what are these shapes? With the underlying assumption they are indeed there, of course.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Dancers versus Centaurs?

IF DANCERS...
I have no dog in this fight except that IF the images are of dancers I reject the assigning of Olympias to the figure on the right. Again I say that, as drawn by Andrew, the representation is not appropriate for Olympias. Yes, his drawing mimics that of the Taranto Maenad (good find). It is not the stance or the dance ( :lol: ) that is the problem, it is the viewpoint that is unacceptable. The sharply defined rear end of a woman is closest to the viewer making it a sexualized image. The bacchante in ancient Greece were not meant to be sexualized. Men were prohibited from viewing their Dionysian abandon as we all know from Euripides. Olympias, as known in the ancient world, had dignity, even drawing her clothes appropriately around herself before she was killed. This is not a portrayal of dignified woman.

Even if I accept both figures on either side of the bull to be unknown female dancers, I still have my doubts that the image is Greek. However, the Romans' purportedly orgiastic Dionysian worship included both sexes and there are plenty of Roman images of bacchantes seen from the rear. And also, at least one similar image of dancers worshiping Apis.

Image
A Roman relief sculpture of the 2nd century CE found in Italy, now in the Terme Museum. It represents the popular Egyptian festival of the Apis bull.

IF CENTAURS ...
Definitely difficult to find other Greek images of centaurs to compare. Searching with the keywords "ancient Greece and centaurs" one finds mostly images of Chiron or battles against the centaurs. However, if one simply Googles "Dionysos Centaurs" then Google Images positively vomits images of Dionysos with centaurs, many of them on sarcophagi and just about all of them Roman. Interesting.

THE BULL
Once again I admit to an immediate reaction the first time I saw the image. And yes, I saw "bling" because I'm familiar with decorative horse harnesses and this seemed similar, although I had one particular item in mind. But, as is becoming usual in this thread, there are no other Greek images springing immediately to our attention. Of course there is very little in the way of paintings which have survived over the years and only a few tombs to compare. And any plastic images of bulls have long since lost their paint which may have shown ornamentation. So I looked instead where both bull worship and tomb paintings are to be found - ancient Egypt. Don't want to fill this thread with seemingly unrelated images so I'll just give the links of images showing bulls (Apis) with ornamentation across their "chests".

Egyptian civilization, Third Intermediate Period, Dynasty XXI. Painted limestone stele of god Apis from Serapeum at Memphis.

Apis bull Tomb of Ti Saqqara Egypt

The Apis bull protected the dead on their way to the underworld. This explains its use as a design on coffin ends. Coffin footboard from Egypt, 8th to 4th century BCE. (National Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh, UK)

Offering scene with the sacred bull Apis. The dead man is offering to the bull … … … Greco Roman Period. 2nd Century AD.

Image from the Theban Papyrus of Ani from the Book of Death.

No source but I chose this to show another variation of ornament.

IMO none of these images prove that the bull on the tomb wall is Apis, Dionysos, or otherwise, but I seen no reason to argue that the yellow crescent could not be "bling" and that the bull could not be a representation of a god. If the Egyptians decorated their bull gods, why not the Greeks? Anyway, here's the exact image that popped into my head upon first seeing images of the frieze - adjusted for bull-size of course. :)

Image
Gold breastplate, from the royal tomb of Philip II, Vergina (Greece).

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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by Xenophon »

I see I am a little slow out of the blocks with representations, due to time zones!

The picture below is a wall painting from Pompeii of a girl picking flowers, believed to be a copy or inspired by Hellenistic wall painting. In my mind's eye, when I look at the 'Rohrschach inkblot' that is the girl in the tomb painting, I 'see' a somewhat similar pose (only mirror image), though the raised arm implies a dancing pose to me.......

I definitely don't 'see' garlands or 'centaurs' no matter how hard I try to visualise these.

I believe Taphoi's 'diagonal chest strap' is just where the upper hem has turned over......

Amyntoros' image is of a piece of armour for a man called a 'gorget', worn to protect the throat and upper chest.....
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

Post by amyntoros »

Xenophon wrote:=
Amyntoros' image is of a piece of armour for a man called a 'gorget', worn to protect the throat and upper chest.....
Not really sure why you felt the need to explain the purpose of the item/armour. Given that the one in "Philip's" tomb is gold and obviously decorative are you saying that the Greeks would not have duplicated such to honor/decorate a bull/god? Or is your statement just an fyi for those of us who don't pursue the discussions on arms and armour? Hard to tell but right now I'm feeling like you are dismissing my association with the "gorget" and the illustration of the bull on the frieze. Am I misinterpreting?

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