Pankration blog

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pankration
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Pankration blog

Post by pankration »

For those interested in the Greek martial arts, particularly during Alexander's time the following blog might be of interest.

http://www.greekrealm.com/forum/z/pankration/blog/
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Paralus
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Post by Paralus »

I think, by now, we are only too well aware of both your blog and your e-novel. A post minus the self interested directions might be appreciated?!
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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pankration
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Post by pankration »

Part of this site is devoted to books. I'm providing a link to a blog people might find interesting. You can excercise your right to not view it. Any book, particularly history or fictionalized history, is almost impossible to publicize. Attaching email addresses onto my signature is hardly aggressive marketing. You can see from my posts here and half a dozen other sites that I don't "push" my book in my posts. The signature is there for those who are interested. The blog announcement is just that, an announcement and I put it in the appropriate forum.
If the administrator of this site feels that I have violated someone's sensibilities I will happily remove it and myself from this site. It would be regrettable as I find that most of these people on this site are well educated and eager to learn about various aspects of Greek history including the pankration. One of the best things about this site is the wealth of research offered by its participants and I appreciate the access to it. I was reading your posts before; I thought it would be fruitful to participate. I don't need to as you don't need to read anything I post here or on my blog.
If you want me to leave have the administrator contact me.
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stavros
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Post by stavros »

Pankration

thanks for the links. :D ancient greek martial arts like Pankration have paved the way for all martial arts today.

What Martial Arts discipline do you practice? The ancient Greeks were something else, to introduce various styles of martial arts like Pankration, boxing and wrestling in a form that is evident in todays martial arts styles.

We can thank Alexander the Great for spreading his Greekness to India and with that Pankration the ancient greek martial art. This obviously changed the way martial arts was practiced in India and then China.

Ancient greek martial arts like Pankration enhanced forms of martial arts in Asia. Pankration was known for its brutality of punching and kicking hard as well as grappling with ur opponent until death.

Sosai Mas Oyama, founder of Kyokushin Karate (the style of martial arts I do) has always said that Karate begun in Ancient greece not Japan. and we can thank alexander for spreading this ancient greek martial art to Asia which blended with Indian styles like Vajramushti.

u probably know all this 8)

cheers

stavros
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reply to stavros

Post by pankration »

Stavros, you know your stuff. On Mas Oyama: one of the toughest to ever come out of Japan. He fought bulls with his bare hands and rumor has it that he even fought a bear the same way. His type of karate, Kyokushinkai, is probably the roughest Asian style next to Muay Thai there is. I used to compete (I'm a 3rd degree blackbelt in Taekwondo) and I wouldn't even try to beat the Kyokushinkai guys; I simply fought for survival! For someone of Mas Oyama's stature to credit the Greeks is incredible.

I will be posting a history of the pankration on the blog so look for a notice on this thread.

And to finish of my martial arts bio: I was teaching a pankration style 25 years ago before anyone had even heard of it (except Jim Arvinitis, you should go to his website). At that time kickboxing was huge and I did have 2 professional fights. Won 1, lost 1. If you have a 1984 issue of Official Karate you'll find my name there as a winner of the Canadian Nationals in the Black belt division. However, I did lose the overall title in overtime. That's how it goes. Now I train part time, but age and injuries are catching up.
rjones2818
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Gomi!

Post by rjones2818 »

Gomi!
Gomi!!
Gomi!!!

:twisted:
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stavros
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Re: Gomi!

Post by stavros »

rjones2818 wrote:Gomi!
Gomi!!
Gomi!!!

:twisted:
is there anything bothering u twisted evil???? :roll:
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stavros
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Re: reply to stavros

Post by stavros »

pankration wrote:Stavros, you know your stuff. On Mas Oyama: one of the toughest to ever come out of Japan. He fought bulls with his bare hands and rumor has it that he even fought a bear the same way. His type of karate, Kyokushinkai, is probably the roughest Asian style next to Muay Thai there is. I used to compete (I'm a 3rd degree blackbelt in Taekwondo) and I wouldn't even try to beat the Kyokushinkai guys; I simply fought for survival! For someone of Mas Oyama's stature to credit the Greeks is incredible.

I will be posting a history of the pankration on the blog so look for a notice on this thread.

And to finish of my martial arts bio: I was teaching a pankration style 25 years ago before anyone had even heard of it (except Jim Arvinitis, you should go to his website). At that time kickboxing was huge and I did have 2 professional fights. Won 1, lost 1. If you have a 1984 issue of Official Karate you'll find my name there as a winner of the Canadian Nationals in the Black belt division. However, I did lose the overall title in overtime. That's how it goes. Now I train part time, but age and injuries are catching up.
Pankration

thanks for replying. yep... i have the article in my hands and it discusses the influence Ancient Greek Martial Arts, thanks to Alexander the Great, has had on Eastern Oriental Martial Arts.

Thanks for the Bio on ur martial arts career. I hear u, injuries and age certainly slow u down big time. Sometimes I wish i was 21 again training Kyokushin Karate to reach my peak again which roughly took me 3 years. :)

I have a question for u P.... Would Alexander the Great and army or any ancient greek army ie. macedonians, athenians, spartans, thebans, thessalians etc.. etc.. through the times, how important was training Pankration to establish their strong infantry??

Obviously the men in ancient armies were extrememly well trained, and an army depended on that for sure! For instance, have u heard or read about the Spartan diet and Spartan training program that the ancient Spartans would do? no wonder they crushed the Persians. They were so tough!! Pankration would have a huge role in that success in my opinion.

cheers

Stavros
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The Spartans defeated Persia? There's news

Post by Paralus »

.
stavros wrote:Obviously the men in ancient armies were extrememly well trained, and an army depended on that for sure! For instance, have u heard or read about the Spartan diet and Spartan training program that the ancient Spartans would do? no wonder they crushed the Persians. They were so tough!! Pankration would have a huge role in that success in my opinion.
Firstly, there were more than just Spartans in the "Alliance" that defeated the Persians. Even at Plataea. Many more. Secondly I'd think that the pankration had little or no application to hoplite warfare. Kicking, grappling, choking and tripping via the grappling of ankles had precious little to do with the discipline of phalanx warfare. Certainly didn't come to the aid of those Homoioi on Pylos in 426/5. Drill, orchestrated manoeuvrers and knowing little else all helped greatly though. Read Thucydides' description of Mantinea (418). That's what made the Spartans so "tough" and, to the Thebans some forty or so years later, easy to read and defeat.

As to their (the Spartans') crushing of Persia, well, a good thing they participated. From 412 onwards they did little other that sell that reputation down the drain. Successive "deals" (down to 371 and still trying in 367/6) with the Great King allowed them to defeat Athens and maintain an empire at the price of the Greeks of Asia Minor.

Not that one would ever know it from Xenephon's Apologia Laconia (Hellenica). In that rendition, one only ever hears of Greek states' currying of Persian favour after Leuctra
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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jasonxx

Post by jasonxx »

Michael hail

I gotta agree with your opinions with the Spartans,They get too much credit for basically been brought up tough and keeping formation. As you said easily sorted out by the thebans at Leuctra. And its fair to say with all the discipline training etc it was seasonal and one dimensional. Any one with balls and ingenuity would indeed get behing them and start sending them home on there shields.

For me theres too much presidence set for the Spartans at Leuctra. Fair enough to stand and die to the last man was of legends. But at the start we cant say the Greeks were up against it. We know that there were in excess of 10 000 Greeks holding that pass against Xerxes and it doesnt matter how many Persians there were in such a bottle neck only a certain amount of lesser armed Asians can be pressed against the Armoured Greeks. Its fair to assume had Xerxes not been shown a way round the back. The Greeks could have held the pass indefinately. Or at least taken thosands of Persians down.

Once they were roung the back. Leoniadas knew the game was over and did wht he did . Any army at all would struggle with the bottle neck. Alexander was lucky the Persians never held the Cilician Gates or the Persian gates with such vigour if they did it would have cost the Macedonians dearly.



Kenny
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Post by Efstathios »

The Spartans lost at leuktra mainly because they wouldnt develop new fighting techniques, lighter armor e.t.c, while the Thebeans had developed such techniques.Plus, the Spartans then were not as they were 100 years ago.There is no comparison between the Spartan army of Thermopylae, or even the Peloponnesean war.The Persian probably corrupted their ways.
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Re: The Spartans defeated Persia? There's news

Post by stavros »

Paralus wrote:.
stavros wrote:Obviously the men in ancient armies were extrememly well trained, and an army depended on that for sure! For instance, have u heard or read about the Spartan diet and Spartan training program that the ancient Spartans would do? no wonder they crushed the Persians. They were so tough!! Pankration would have a huge role in that success in my opinion.
Firstly, there were more than just Spartans in the "Alliance" that defeated the Persians. Even at Plataea. Many more. Secondly I'd think that the pankration had little or no application to hoplite warfare. Kicking, grappling, choking and tripping via the grappling of ankles had precious little to do with the discipline of phalanx warfare. Certainly didn't come to the aid of those Homoioi on Pylos in 426/5. Drill, orchestrated manoeuvrers and knowing little else all helped greatly though. Read Thucydides' description of Mantinea (418). That's what made the Spartans so "tough" and, to the Thebans some forty or so years later, easy to read and defeat.

As to their (the Spartans') crushing of Persia, well, a good thing they participated. From 412 onwards they did little other that sell that reputation down the drain. Successive "deals" (down to 371 and still trying in 367/6) with the Great King allowed them to defeat Athens and maintain an empire at the price of the Greeks of Asia Minor.

Not that one would ever know it from Xenephon's Apologia Laconia (Hellenica). In that rendition, one only ever hears of Greek states' currying of Persian favour after Leuctra
I meant more so the ancient armies of Greece possibly utilizing Pankration as a means of conditioning their bodies and minds. Strength, Discipline, Confidence, all apart of strong martial arts training which most difinitely can be applied on the battlefield. Ancient armies would have developed through this tough training to enhance there physical and mentall capability on the battlefield.

Ive read that Alexander would hunt lions as he marched east for the Persians, thats a form of training that could be applied on the battlefield. Possibly keep him fit, target practice with the bow & arrow. Again can be applied on the battlefield.

Ancient soldiers were something else in my opinion. ATG's men would march 30 to 35 miles every day, loaded with weapons, shields and armour. These were not ordinary men. They would of had long tough training to acheive that, strong bodies, extreme conditioning and strong discipline.

Quote Paralus/ "Secondly I'd think that the pankration had little or no application to hoplite warfare. Kicking, grappling, choking and tripping via the grappling of ankles had precious little to do with the discipline of phalanx warfare."\ Unquote

There are historical accounts of Spartan hoplites using pankration in battle as far back as 480 BC. The ancient historians Plutarch and Philostratos both mention wrestling and pankration being used in battle by disarmed hoplites at two very famous Greek battles, Marathon and Thermopylae.

Why do you think the Persians had greek mercenaries in their armies? cause they were Persian wimps, their soldiers were nothing like the well trained Greek soldiers!!
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Post by Efstathios »

Every aspect of Greek athletism played a part in the military.It is natural.They walked long, they ran with their equipment on, they fought with the spear,sword, and shield.So they had to be in good shape and exercised.
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Spartans practicing pankration on Persians at Marathon?

Post by Paralus »

stavros wrote:Ancient soldiers were something else in my opinion. ATG's men would march 30 to 35 miles every day, loaded with weapons, shields and armour. These were not ordinary men. They would of had long tough training to acheive that, strong bodies, extreme conditioning and strong discipline.
I don't know about 30-35 miles per day. Agesilaos has reliable figures on Alexander's marches (I seem to recall 15 or so?). And, yes, they were ordinary men. No Heracles among them to be sure. Well trained and disciplined? Yes. Supermen? No.
stavros wrote:There are historical accounts of Spartan hoplites using pankration in battle as far back as 480 BC. The ancient historians Plutarch and Philostratos both mention wrestling and pankration being used in battle by disarmed hoplites at two very famous Greek battles, Marathon and Thermopylae.

Why do you think the Persians had greek mercenaries in their armies? cause they were Persian wimps, their soldiers were nothing like the well trained Greek soldiers!!
The melee that was Thermoplolae is a different case: particularly the end involving hand to hand. As for Marathon, there were no Spartans present.

Pankration may well have been marvellous training for hand to hand combat. It may well have been marvellous conditioning too, as long as one survived the "conditioning". Again, though, it had no place in traditional hoplite warfare. The next hoplite to drop xyston and shield in the front rank to tackle his opponent will have been the last.

I do not recall pankration being mentioned as part of the Athenian Ephebe's training. I will have a look though.

The Persian army is a subject of its own. I have briefly addressed it elsewhere. Suffice to say that the prejudiced phrase "they were Persian wimps" would indicate a singular lack of any understanding of the Persian military or willingness to on your part. Any argument most likely would be wasted.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Post by stavros »

disagree. No, they were not ordinary AVERAGE men. the average soldier is the one in Iraq holding a button before he fires.

Any man that can walk over 30km a day with armour, shielding and weaponry is a man that is well trained, very disciplined, determined and very strong. These men were not average. Their training by a possible means of Ancient Greek Pankration, Wrestling and Boxing aided if not determined there superiority over the enemy, along with foremost the traditional strategic hoplite warfare.

i do not state in my post that traditional hoplite warfare was Pankration if u read and understood previous posts. Pankration being a tough, disciplined, martial art would be used as a means by hoplites to condition and stregthen their bodies, thus enhancing there capabilities in fitness, discipline, mental conditioning and physical conditioning.

simple really!! a hypothesis that can surely be tested.

the Greeks crushed the Persians, nobody remembers second best??
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