Alexander Revisited (The Final Cut) DVD

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marcus
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Post by marcus »

Beatriki wrote:Raw or not, these are homophobic insults. And I'm not leaving because someone has a different opinion, I'm leaving because human rights are being violated, and because his message hasn't been deleted. So, what happens here, insults are permitted if they are addressed to homosexuals?? What kind of rules are these??
It seems that you might already have left, but I will address this now, anyway.

First, I have only just seen how this thread has turned out. There are not many moderators on this forum, and half of them seem to have disappeared into the ether. The rest of us do not spend 24 hours a day glued to the screen watching out for violations.

Second, while I find Kenny's comments unnecessary, inflammatory, derogatory, rude, crude, controversial, unreasonable, insulting, ignorant, and a whole host of other adjectives, I would point out that he has not actually breached any of the rules of this forum. He might have breached common decency, but unfortunately there is no sanction against that here. While on the one hand I would dearly love to delete his comments, I see no reason to, and having been lambasted in the past for censoring when no censoring took place, I dread to think what will happen if I actually *did* delete his posts. Being a moderator is a thankless job, but we do try to do the job within parameters.

Third, I hope you have not left this forum for good. It has been a brighter place for your presence. I have found it much easier just to ignore the barbarians.

I will be more than happy to delete the posts (and all those that follow it) if everyone requests it. Until that time, I'm afraid the muck has to stay with the gold.

ATB
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dean
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What , hello , what is going on?

Post by dean »

Hello,

Just reading the previous few posts and felt I had to comment. As Marcus points out, there are basic rules of "engagement"- and yet diplomacy isn't an art we all have mastered.

But Kenny's comments certainly come from a position of "I am OK , You're Not OK"
either way, Kenny more than once has written posts to set us all on fire- so maybe the "freaks of nature" part was just intended as that- at least I hope so...

Freedom of speech- is a wonderful thing- but maybe there should be an additional part in the rules- to keep us rollin' in adult terms or from an "I'm OK- You're OK" pos.

Best regards,
Dean. :wink:
carpe diem
karen
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Go to his grave...

Post by karen »

Beatriki wrote:
What do you find sad?
Well, here's this guy who's admired and been fascinated with Alexander all his life -- he's said so. He grows up to be a movie-maker, and all along he wants to do an Alexander movie, and make it the greatest work he's done, in tribute to his hero. It's literally a life-long dream -- he's said that too.

So he gives it best shot -- but then has to chop it up for studio and time reasons, so that a story he's already decided to present in a non-linear way is made incoherent. Not to say he didn't make other mistakes, but that's the thing that most people didn't like -- the fact that the movie was hard to understand. Repeatedly I read in reviews the word "mess." Hard to understand means you don't get its emotional impact, can't relate to the characters, etc. -- and that's fatal.

So it gets trashed by reviewers, ignored by movie-goers, passed over for Oscars, etc. What can be a worse public humiliation for an artist? But Stone just can't blow it off and think "on to the next project" -- because it's been a lifelong dream, and it's about someone he idolizes. He felt he'd failed Alexander himself -- I heard or read him quoted saying that somewhere.

This is why he's done not one, but two director's cuts, trying desperately to improve the final product with the footage he has. He's trying to do right by Alexander, and trying to communicate his own vision (whether you agree with it or not) in a way that makes the viewer feel what he does in his own heart. That's why he says, on the Revisited trailer, "now I can go to my grave with a good conscience." Getting Alexander right is a matter of conscience for him.

But the best version will never be in the theatres, and thus will never be seen by most people. No matter how many DVDs he sells, his Alexander will always be thought of as a loser. And people will laugh at him for doing two director's cuts, as we are on this forum. And he's stuck with that for the rest of his life.

Don't you find that sad?

ATB,
Karen
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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

Alexander is my god
Errr what?


By the way mate, how was the RSW?
The RSW :?: :?: :?:

Care to make an analysis of the letters? I think yesterday's scotch had it's effects.
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Beatriki
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Re: Go to his grave...

Post by Beatriki »

karen wrote:Beatriki wrote:
What do you find sad?
Well, here's this guy who's admired and been fascinated with Alexander all his life -- he's said so. He grows up to be a movie-maker, and all along he wants to do an Alexander movie, and make it the greatest work he's done, in tribute to his hero. It's literally a life-long dream -- he's said that too.

So he gives it best shot -- but then has to chop it up for studio and time reasons, so that a story he's already decided to present in a non-linear way is made incoherent. Not to say he didn't make other mistakes, but that's the thing that most people didn't like -- the fact that the movie was hard to understand. Repeatedly I read in reviews the word "mess." Hard to understand means you don't get its emotional impact, can't relate to the characters, etc. -- and that's fatal.

So it gets trashed by reviewers, ignored by movie-goers, passed over for Oscars, etc. What can be a worse public humiliation for an artist? But Stone just can't blow it off and think "on to the next project" -- because it's been a lifelong dream, and it's about someone he idolizes. He felt he'd failed Alexander himself -- I heard or read him quoted saying that somewhere.

This is why he's done not one, but two director's cuts, trying desperately to improve the final product with the footage he has. He's trying to do right by Alexander, and trying to communicate his own vision (whether you agree with it or not) in a way that makes the viewer feel what he does in his own heart. That's why he says, on the Revisited trailer, "now I can go to my grave with a good conscience." Getting Alexander right is a matter of conscience for him.

But the best version will never be in the theatres, and thus will never be seen by most people. No matter how many DVDs he sells, his Alexander will always be thought of as a loser. And people will laugh at him for doing two director's cuts, as we are on this forum. And he's stuck with that for the rest of his life.

Don't you find that sad?

ATB,
Karen
No, what I find really sad is that most people have not understood this film due to their prejudices. And I also find sad that people like Stone who wanted to present the ancient world like it was and NOT like we would want it to be, has been critisized mostly by people who know nothing about Alexander (except for the Manfredi's trashy novels), and think they are better and know more than the best Alexander historian of our time, R.L. Fox.

Alexander has been mostly critisized in the USA, not in Europe, by the way, and for those reasons. Here, most historians love it and show it to their students.

I admire Stone and thank him so much for this complete version. I know he didn't do it for the stupid critics, he did it because of us, the real fans. And that's sth. we won't forget...
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Oh, yeah, we're talking about a movie

Post by karen »

Beatriki wrote:
No, what I find really sad is that most people have not understood this film due to their prejudices. And I also find sad that people like Stone who wanted to present the ancient world like it was and NOT like we would want it to be, has been critisized mostly by people who know nothing about Alexander (except for the Manfredi's trashy novels), and think they are better and know more than the best Alexander historian of our time, R.L. Fox.

Alexander has been mostly critisized in the USA, not in Europe, by the way, and for those reasons. Here, most historians love it and show it to their students.

I admire Stone and thank him so much for this complete version. I know he didn't do it for the stupid critics, he did it because of us, the real fans. And that's sth. we won't forget...
Well, I don't know that we're disagreeing, really. I tend to feel Stone's own pain because I've had a slightly analogous experience myself, though on a much smaller scale, in the publishing world.

And fair enough, I'll give you that the bad reaction was borne out of prejudice, in part, anyway -- I was thinking of mentioning it in my own post and got sidetracked. There is the prejudice of those who think homosexuals are, em, freaks of nature, of course... and then there is a dislike of Oliver Stone personally that's fairly strong in the USA in particular, due to previous movies he's done that have touched nerves. Interesting that it's so much better regarded in Europe. (Which country are you in?)

That said, I still think it'll work better with the battle of Gaugamela at the start. He's said he's totally changed Alexander's courtship of Roxane, to put a new texture in it... maybe that means they won't be hissing at each other like cats and all the other silly stuff. I can hope. (Hear me, O Olympians...)

BTW Beatriki, I'm glad you're staying.

Warmly,
Karen
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Re: Oh, yeah, we're talking about a movie

Post by Beatriki »

karen wrote:Beatriki wrote:
No, what I find really sad is that most people have not understood this film due to their prejudices. And I also find sad that people like Stone who wanted to present the ancient world like it was and NOT like we would want it to be, has been critisized mostly by people who know nothing about Alexander (except for the Manfredi's trashy novels), and think they are better and know more than the best Alexander historian of our time, R.L. Fox.

Alexander has been mostly critisized in the USA, not in Europe, by the way, and for those reasons. Here, most historians love it and show it to their students.

I admire Stone and thank him so much for this complete version. I know he didn't do it for the stupid critics, he did it because of us, the real fans. And that's sth. we won't forget...
Well, I don't know that we're disagreeing, really. I tend to feel Stone's own pain because I've had a slightly analogous experience myself, though on a much smaller scale, in the publishing world.

And fair enough, I'll give you that the bad reaction was borne out of prejudice, in part, anyway -- I was thinking of mentioning it in my own post and got sidetracked. There is the prejudice of those who think homosexuals are, em, freaks of nature, of course... and then there is a dislike of Oliver Stone personally that's fairly strong in the USA in particular, due to previous movies he's done that have touched nerves. Interesting that it's so much better regarded in Europe. (Which country are you in?)

That said, I still think it'll work better with the battle of Gaugamela at the start. He's said he's totally changed Alexander's courtship of Roxane, to put a new texture in it... maybe that means they won't be hissing at each other like cats and all the other silly stuff. I can hope. (Hear me, O Olympians...)

BTW Beatriki, I'm glad you're staying.

Warmly,
Karen
No, we are not disagreeing :) And thanks for your words, people like you make me want to stay, definitely. There's no reason to leave a place in which I could learn a lot because of certain kind of people.

Kisses, Beatriki

PS: I was born in Greece, but live since age 4 in Spain
Last edited by Beatriki on Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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marcus
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Re: Oh dear dear me.

Post by marcus »

Beatriki wrote:
karen wrote:I admit (mea culpa!) that I meant to stir things up a little, but not like this!

In regard to the pothos rules, I wonder if referring to homosexuals as "freaks of nature" would fall under "inappropriate language"...?

I wonder also if the service which hosts the forum has terms of service which prohibit discriminatory or hateful material, to which Thomas has agreed. We don't want him or the forum itself in trouble.
I was thinking the same, too. Isn't Kenny's language foul and inappropiate?? I ask...
Well, all that might be the case, but let's face it, once others jumped into the stew it rather muddied the waters. Which is why I'm not going to delete it - if another moderator wishes to, that's fine by me. It would make everyone's life a lot easier if we never had to embark on these discussions in the first place, by thinking twice before we posted our messages - and I know that I, as much as anyone else, have been guilty of (unintentionally) insulting other forum members, so I am just as aware of how thorny a problem it is.

I'm quite happy to delete future messages at my discretion, but not if I'm then going to be criticised for it.

ATB
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Re: Oh dear dear me.

Post by Beatriki »

marcus wrote:
Beatriki wrote:
karen wrote:I admit (mea culpa!) that I meant to stir things up a little, but not like this!

In regard to the pothos rules, I wonder if referring to homosexuals as "freaks of nature" would fall under "inappropriate language"...?

I wonder also if the service which hosts the forum has terms of service which prohibit discriminatory or hateful material, to which Thomas has agreed. We don't want him or the forum itself in trouble.
I was thinking the same, too. Isn't Kenny's language foul and inappropiate?? I ask...
Well, all that might be the case, but let's face it, once others jumped into the stew it rather muddied the waters. Which is why I'm not going to delete it - if another moderator wishes to, that's fine by me. It would make everyone's life a lot easier if we never had to embark on these discussions in the first place, by thinking twice before we posted our messages - and I know that I, as much as anyone else, have been guilty of (unintentionally) insulting other forum members, so I am just as aware of how thorny a problem it is.

I'm quite happy to delete future messages at my discretion, but not if I'm then going to be criticised for it.

ATB
Marcus, I am a moderator myself and I know how you feel. We know more than any others that "sometimes, doing the right thing isn't the right thing". But, as I see it, all the discussion about homophoby should be deleted according to the rules. I apologize for having answered his post, though.

Kisses, Beatriki
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Post by athenas owl »

I don't know why some people are upset about a film going through a number of "cuts". How many directors would love the opportunity to remake a film? Perhaps Stone will set a precedent. It would like asking an academic to never update their work, even though information and views may change.

I do know that while the film tanked in the US, the UK and other English speaking countries (I wonder what the correlation is there?) it was also the top grossing film that year in a number of countries.

Would it have been received differently in a different political climate or era (or attention span)? Karen had a very good point about Stone's own "history" being another reason some people simply didn't give it a chance (see the responses to the news he was doing a film about the WTC).

I didn't agree with his interpretation of a few of the people in the film, though the condensed battles and characters were no problem for me. Money alone had to be an issue. Not to mention that if he had stuck to the original people who said or acted a certain way in a certain place, the same audiences that comlained about the length and confusion as it was would have been apopletic. :wink:

I still roll my eys at the many reviewers who made fun of the "corny" lines that Stone wrote (and yeah there were a few, though I have a feeling that a lot of what the ancient world did we modern folk might consider "corny"), using the comment about "Hephaistion's thighs" as an example of Stone's bad writing....uh, Phoinix of Colophon anyone? (This is not to get into the argument whether that is a valid bit or not). So much of the criticism of the film was like that, to my mind. Snickering, but in ignorance.

Of course, everyone has their own unique vision of ATG...Stone tried with all sincerity and heart to give his. Messy, confused..but then I'm reading about the campaigns up in Bactria, Sogdhia and India right now again...it was messy and confusing. I really liked that Stone even attempted to cover those years. It wasn't "glory".
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Movie? What movie?

Post by karen »

Marcus wrote:
I'm quite happy to delete future messages at my discretion, but not if I'm then going to be criticised for it.
You're giving up your deleting power, then, Marcus, because it's exactly the people who write posts which ought to be deleted who'll criticize you for doing it.

I say, moderators should delete as warranted and take the subsequent railing as confirmation of the correctness of their choice ;)

Warmly,
Karen
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tolerance

Post by nina »

WHO IS TO CHANGE THE TRUTH! I AGREE THIS SHOULD BE MODERATED OUT.HOW MANY HAVE HEARD "LIVE AND LET LIVE.......CHILDREN, PLEASE BEHAVE.
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Re: Movie? What movie?

Post by Beatriki »

karen wrote:Marcus wrote:
I'm quite happy to delete future messages at my discretion, but not if I'm then going to be criticised for it.
You're giving up your deleting power, then, Marcus, because it's exactly the people who write posts which ought to be deleted who'll criticize you for doing it.

I say, moderators should delete as warranted and take the subsequent railing as confirmation of the correctness of their choice ;)

Warmly,
Karen
I couldn't have expressed it better, Karen :wink:
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THE MOVIE

Post by nina »

HI, COULD NOT BARE THE MOVIE AND GOD KNOWS I TRIED. HOW CAN OLIVER STONE MAKE THIS ANY BETTER WHEN THE WRONG ACTORS WERE CHOSEN.........TAT CAN'T CHANGE. I'LL WATCH THIS ADDED ADDITIN WHEN IT COMES ON T.V. BUT WILL NOT GO OUT AND BUY IT SIGHT UNSEEN. REGADS NINA
jan
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Gotta agree that none of the cuts make sense

Post by jan »

:D If all Stone is doing is simply re-editing and changing scenes, adding only material that he found unsuitable already and left on the cutting room floor, what is the sense of buying this movie? I agree, Nina, dumb idea to buy another version of the same old stuff! :P
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