Re: Philips foreign policy

[jim]

As to rich Athenians, the moneyed or aristocratic classes in Athens by and large preferred Macedonian rule - particularly when it curtailed the offensive demos

We are talking about the political class.To the local pols Phillip was a threat for obvious reasons.Aristocrtic money classes care only about stability and preserving their personal wealth.Obviosly the campaign to denunce him did not come from the Slaves and Metics of Athens Did Phillip use Nationalic Demogogary ect to try to gain support .Of course.So do all power brokers

[jim]

As to my discipleship, for the Gods' sake Jim, lighten up GÇô it was firmly tongue in cheek. Paralus-- Sounds like you take things a little to literally so I will return the lighten up comment. In addition I never advocated that ATG invaded Persia to spread the blessing of Hellenism any more then the Spainiards conquered much of the New World to give the natives the blessings of Spanish Culture and Catholism but in
neither case it was not a meaningless training excecise.However, that might be a Title of a new Book--The Meaning Excersise of Spains Conquest in the New World -- Witten by one of Borza's Desiples seeking to apply his meaningless conquest theory in a different historical setting IN both meaningless conquest excercises the culture of the conquest was imposed on the recipients.

[Paralus]

G'day Jim.Be nice to know your time zone, it would help with continuity. As you'd realise this forum doesn't assign a time to published posts. Myself being in Sydney, Australia (may help with the Badian-Bosworth thing?), I seem to be well out of time with everyone. The posts on this thread are a classic example: I was going to reply to your earlier post only to find it is now a later post GÇô if you know what I mean. I gather a US time zone: which?? AnyhowGǪ."Paralus-- Sounds like you take things a little to literally so I will return the lighten up comment"Point taken. Not often I take things too literally. Must say the first time we interacted on this forum my memory is that I wrote: "exactly as Jim saidGǪ". I believe it may have been in relation to a point you've made on this thread: there was no construct called "Greece" as we know it. No ancient Greek believed it. Nor did any ancient Macedonian GÇô Philip included.The so called "League of Corinth" imposed upon the Greek City States GÇô and imposed it was , make no mistake GÇô was a construct both to guard Philip's eastward marching back and provide the advance propaganda for the war of "liberation" in Asia.The "Greek" king going to war to "liberate" Greeks from the "Great King". Right.
Note the terms of the League: bound to the "hegemon". Who was that? The Macedonian monarch: Philip. The people of Macedon did not take these oaths, the monarch did. It was to him that the Greeks were bound. It is this they resented.I have a huge respect for Philip. He is seriously underestimated by those so smitten with his son. Which son would have lived a useless life in "lower Macedon" had it not been for his father and his general Parmenion.Now, as to your previous post re Borza. I believe you might want to make them more comprehensible. I gather the bit about the Spanish conquests and don't disagree: money (trade) follows conquerors and so does its language etc (and so the Attic koine). Something I've argued on this forum before.

My firm belief though, is that this was absolutely of secondary importance to Alexander. Conquest first for breakfast and then lets see who's available for a luncheon battle.You've asked for my view of Alexander in one the preceding posts. I'll answer GÇô but not tonight I think. There's an inkling above though.Paralus.Ps: Bought Christian Habicht yet?

[bob]

Maybe a result of ATGs conquests was that his successors ended up spreading some culture. I do not beleive this was Alexander's goal but I am open to the possibility as a result of Alexander's conquest this did happen.

[amyntoros]

IGÇÖve meant to post the following excerpt for some time now but didnGÇÖt want to utilize a new thread just to share some information. This isnGÇÖt about the political situation under discussion, but I do think it will be of interest to some of you here, and although a tangent topic it is related to the formation of the Corinthian league. One of my main areas of interest is the social/cultural aspects of the period and I was delighted to find this in Lionel CassonGÇÖs Travel in the Ancient World:Pages 91-92. GÇ£In towns of any size, visitors in search of diversion had the kapeleia or potisteria GÇÿdrinking shopsGÇÖ to turn to, which offered not only wine but meals and gambling and dancing girls. In most cases such establishments were extremely modest, catering to no very elevated trade; the wealthy entertained themselves and their guests at home. There were, however, exceptions, as archeologists discovered when digging at Corinth, one of GreeceGÇÖs most important and active seaports until Rome destroyed it in 146 B.C. Sometime in the second half of the fourth century B.C. the Corinthians put up a long elegant portico with an equally long and elegant two-storey structure behind it. The ground floor housed a line of thirty-one taverns, each with its own entrance onto the portico, and the second floor a line of two-room suites entered from a corridor approached by a staircase at either end of the portico. Each tavern was a bit over 15 feet square, had a storeroom of equal size behind, and from the storeroom a back door led to a small neatly paved area with a latrine. What is more, each tavern had in the middle of its main room the nearest thing to a refrigerator that the ancient world could supply GÇô a well whose bottom opened onto a man-made tunnel connected with fresh springs. Here, at the end of long cords, were kept wine jugs and containers of foodstuffs submerged in the cool water. When excavated the wells turned out to be full of debris from the shops: battered wine jugs, broken flutes, knuckle bones, drinking cups. Some of the last were intact, including a number of the kind that, used for libations, had the name of the god to be honoured inscribed on them. All the names are well known GÇô GÇÿDionysusGÇÖ, GÇÿLoveGÇÖ, GÇÿJoyGÇÖ, GÇÿHealthGÇÖ, - except one: Pausikraipalos GÇÿStop-the-HangoverGÇÖ, The suites above the shops were no less well fitted. Each was entered from the corridor, like the rooms in a modern hotel. The door led into a small antechamber, open at the back; he

[amyntoros]

Continued . . . . . . The door led into a small antechamber, open at the back; here a shallow staircase of two steps, flanked by a simple column on either side, brought one to the main room. The antechamber, which was easily curtained off at night, could have been for servants. There may have been a special reason for facilities of such unexpected luxury in Corinth at this time. From 338 B.C., when Philip of Macedon became master of Greece, to the death of his son Alexander in 323, the city was the seat of the confederacy of Greek states that Philip had created. Whenever meetings were called, every member sent delegates there. Quite possibly the suites were their living quarters and the taverns where they ate and spent their leisure.GÇ¥ CGÇÖmon now GÇô yGÇÖall gotta love this too! Here we have an ancient version of our own political convention where cities are chosen not just for the convention facilities themselves, but also according to the accommodations and entertainment available for the delegates. Philip chose the city but Corinth didnGÇÖt have enough facilities . . .so they built them . . . and a party-town came into being! Presumably the libation to Pausikraipalos was given when downing a hair-of-the-dog! Best regards, Amyntoros

[jim]

Philip chose the city but Corinth didnGÇÖt have enough facilities . . .so they built them . . . and a party-town came into being! I would suggest that we move the UN to Los Vegas Hell where was Buzy Segal 2400 yrs ago

[Paralus]

In Babylon planning a trip to Arabia.Joking, joking...

[jim]

In Babylon planning a trip to Arabia
After Arabia is is the western mediteranean on your agenda?I bet Carthage might have some appeal?

[Paralus]

Quite possibly

[Paralus]

Correction:"The above is also reported in Arrian I think GÇô without my Arrian to hand I can't confirm it . If I'm correct and memory serves, he uses the phrase "the more reliable". Makes one think. At this stage Arrian describes some of the troops as "more reliable"?"It appears it may have been another rendering of Plutarch's description. I have not located it in Arrian as yet. Possibly Curtius?In any case, that Plutarch reports something casting his hero in a "lesser" light - that is having to exhort his hitherto enthusiastic troops - is instructive.Paralus.

[Paralus]

Paralus paraphrasing himself as a twelve year old Michael Jackson:"Go on girl, post up there! Show us what you can do!"God I hate that man. From what part of my memory's antiquity did that come from?!Just on the review, Borza does make plain that it is the film version of an historical novel. Even so, some attention to detail is required no?PAralus.

[marcus]

To be fair, Paralus, the film does have a lot of attention to detail ... but what we tend to notice is where they've got it wrong (eg. the Sumerian statuette, and the map in Ptolemy's study that has all the countries in Latin).I'm hesitant about echoing your call for Amyntoros to post her 'ideal' film treatment ... only because if it were *my* ideal film treatment the resulting film would be about 25 days in length ... but what a great film it would be! :-)ATBMarcus

[jim]

http://www.maknews.com/html/borza_on_alexander.html Was published in a News Paper from Lancester PA
I agree with your assesment of Parmenion regarding accepting Darius's offer.ATG could sense that Darius's offer was one of desperation.I am also sure that Darius must of realized that ATG Inc were after the wealth and power centers of the Persian Empire.That the rich booty of Babylon and other parts of the Empire were irresistable.Darius was essential looking for a bargining diologe to see what parts of his Empire he could salvage.ATG in stating that He Should Be Referred To as Lord of Asia was in essense telling Darius his days were numbered.