Macedonian Shield

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agesilaos
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by agesilaos »

Indeed, Gonatas is usually rendered as 'Knock-kneed'.

The central sun-burst may allude to the story of the foundation of the Macedonian Kingdom which has a goat sitting in a sunbeam or something bit hazy on mythology; it is mentioned in Errington's 'History of Macedonia' but that is not to hand.
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Taphoi
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by Taphoi »

Here is a more pertinent variant of the same Macedonian coin type (from my collection):
Image
Note that there is currently some dispute amongst numismatists as to whether BA is Basileos Antigonou or Basileos Alexandrou.
system1988 wrote:Yes it seems quite similar. The discussion about that particular St. Mark relief is a rather long one. Thanks to a kind gesture, I had the chance to see the relief's narrow side (at least the one side) and that, alas, seems to me Roman- era. Of course I cannot be 100% sure as I only have photos to guide me to that conclusion. In the end I cannot but agree that that relief may indeed lead us to discoveires of any kind.
It would be interesting to hear why you think the sword might be Roman, since it is a perfect match for Macedonian prototypes, such as the swords in the tomb fresco of Lyson & Kallikles? I should let you know that you are contradicting Professor Eugenio Polito (perhaps the leading expert on Macedonian funerary monuments) who wrote that the St Mark fragment is Macedonian and of the third century BC in his book Fulgentibus Armis published in 1998 - see extract from his book below.
P79 of Fulgentibus Armis by E Polito
P79 of Fulgentibus Armis by E Polito
EugenioPolitobkSmall.jpg (128.72 KiB) Viewed 6232 times
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Andrew
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by Meg »

It's a shame no one seems to know of the reference to the Bodyguards and the stars around the sun. It was pretty obscure, but not modern... I know I'm not remembering it correctly which is why I wanted to find the original again. Ah, well...not important really, just interesting.
agesilaos
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by agesilaos »

similar coin of philip V
similar coin of philip V
Laimpi_39a.jpg (39.03 KiB) Viewed 6214 times
This demonstrates the longevity of the typology, once again six 'stars'. Taphoi, your use of the comparative puzzles me; to just what is your picture of a coin with six crescents more pertinent?
denarius of aemilius paullus 62 BC (struck under the triumvir)
denarius of aemilius paullus 62 BC (struck under the triumvir)
aemilia10b.jpg (103.24 KiB) Viewed 6214 times
Politi may be an acknowleged expert but he is not infallible; he actually says that the fragment is consistent in style with the third to early second century, and identifies it as Hellenistic rather than Macedonian, pedantic, perhaps, but one should report one's sources accurately. Also, as he is dating on stylistic grounds and refers to the corselet one could push the date back to the mid-first century as the above coin shows. In fact the presence of the sarissa limits any dating to the latter half of the second as after the defeat of Perseus the hellenistic kingdoms, save Pontus, seem to have abandoned the pike phalanx in favour of more flexible formations. All the same the piece is certainly not Roman, one might have found Macedonian equipment on a triumphal monument, such as that of Aemilius Paullus at Delphi, but this is clearly a funerary monument as Taphoi says and thus of a pre-reform hellenistic pikeman (greaves are clearly visible on the original, and they are infantry equipment).

The inconsistent number of cresent/planets/stars clearly shows that they are decorative rather than symbolic and certainly not to be associated with the somatophylakes.
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by Taphoi »

agesilaos wrote:
This demonstrates the longevity of the typology, once again six 'stars'. Taphoi, your use of the comparative puzzles me; to just what is your picture of a coin with six crescents more pertinent?

Politi may be an acknowleged expert but he is not infallible; he actually says that the fragment is consistent in style with the third to early second century, and identifies it as Hellenistic rather than Macedonian, pedantic, perhaps, but one should report one's sources accurately. Also, as he is dating on stylistic grounds and refers to the corselet one could push the date back to the mid-first century as the above coin shows. In fact the presence of the sarissa limits any dating to the latter half of the second as after the defeat of Perseus the hellenistic kingdoms, save Pontus, seem to have abandoned the pike phalanx in favour of more flexible formations. All the same the piece is certainly not Roman, one might have found Macedonian equipment on a triumphal monument, such as that of Aemilius Paullus at Delphi, but this is clearly a funerary monument as Taphoi says and thus of a pre-reform hellenistic pikeman (greaves are clearly visible on the original, and they are infantry equipment).

The inconsistent number of cresent/planets/stars clearly shows that they are decorative rather than symbolic and certainly not to be associated with the somatophylakes.
I count five crescents on my coin. I meant that the boss on this representation of a Macedonian shield has the (eight-pointed) star emblem, whereas the other coins show other symbols at the centre of the shield.

Polito says that the sculpture is "definitely from the Hellenistic world", then he says that the shield with the star symbol is Macedonian. And in the footnote that I have included in the top left he says that its provenance was the eastern Mediterranean and that it had probably been shipped to Venice as naval ballast.

I think you are correct to conclude that a date very much after Perseus's defeat at Pydna in 168BC is improbable, because the sarissa became deprecated as a weapon, due to its having proven ineffectual against legionaries.

A Macedonian king would have had a full set of equipment for fighting both on foot and on horseback (several full sets probably). As has been said here before, the sarissa here is consistent with the dimensions of a cavalry sarissa particularly. (For anyone who has not seen the earlier discussions: the righthand side of the block is missing, but the sarissa would appear to have extended to the bottom right corner for reasons of symmetry and the weapons depicted on the block are lifesize - the shield is ~70cm in diameter and rimless, which means that it is phalangite or for a cavalryman.)

I agree that no very convincing explanation of the crescents has yet been put forward.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by system1988 »

Taphoi wrote:Here is a more pertinent variant of the same Macedonian coin type (from my collection):
Image
Note that there is currently some dispute amongst numismatists as to whether BA is Basileos Antigonou or Basileos Alexandrou.
system1988 wrote:Yes it seems quite similar. The discussion about that particular St. Mark relief is a rather long one. Thanks to a kind gesture, I had the chance to see the relief's narrow side (at least the one side) and that, alas, seems to me Roman- era. Of course I cannot be 100% sure as I only have photos to guide me to that conclusion. In the end I cannot but agree that that relief may indeed lead us to discoveires of any kind.
It would be interesting to hear why you think the sword might be Roman, since it is a perfect match for Macedonian prototypes, such as the swords in the tomb fresco of Lyson & Kallikles? I should let you know that you are contradicting Professor Eugenio Polito (perhaps the leading expert on Macedonian funerary monuments) who wrote that the St Mark fragment is Macedonian and of the third century BC in his book Fulgentibus Armis published in 1998 - see extract from his book below.
EugenioPolitobkSmall.jpg
Best wishes,

Andrew

Well I said "it seems to me". The only thing I saw clearly on the relief is a a shield and a spear. Shall I presume that the spear is held by a hand?
Anyway what made say "Roman" was what I was able to make out from the narrow side of the relief. There are 2 cords on that side that do not seem to me as early Hellenistic (if we presume that the relief is from the genuine Alexander monument). However, how many details can we claim to know about Alexander's tomb? This piece could have been an addition from later years.

Keep your research goind and good luck!

Now as usual I am going to remind to all of you that I am not always availabe to answer right away since my time with my pc is limited due to its constant use by my son. A real dictatorship- dont ask! That is why I am going to have to ask for your patience as far as the timing of my answers is concerned. I will always answer but not immediately.
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Taphoi
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by Taphoi »

system1988 wrote:Well I said "it seems to me". The only thing I saw clearly on the relief is a a shield and a spear. Shall I presume that the spear is held by a hand?
Anyway what made say "Roman" was what I was able to make out from the narrow side of the relief. There are 2 cords on that side that do not seem to me as early Hellenistic (if we presume that the relief is from the genuine Alexander monument). However, how many details can we claim to know about Alexander's tomb? This piece could have been an addition from later years.
Hi System1988,

Okay. I understand why you were confused. Some details on the sculpture are difficult to make out in photos, although they are quite clear in real life, once you know what they are. Hopefully the image below of the Macedonian tomb of Lyson & Kallikles will help you understand the photos of the St Mark star-shield fragment. The things you think might be arms holding the sarissa are actually greaves (lower leg armour). You can see a pair of greaves in the Lyson & Kallikles mural too (laid along the bottom). The thing on the side of the star-shield sculpture is a single-edged kopis sword as used by the Macedonian cavalry. It is slung diagonally from a tasselled belt that is itself hung over a nail. You can see exactly the same arrangement at the left of the Lyson & Kallikles mural. It is a Hellenistic motif. The hilt appears to have something like the bird's beak hook at its end that can be seen in the Lyson & Kallikles kopis too. This is very Macedonian - similar swords have been excavated from Macedonian tombs.

Best wishes,

Andrew
Mural in the tomb of Lyson & Kallikles in Macedonia
Mural in the tomb of Lyson & Kallikles in Macedonia
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by spitamenes »

Taphoi,
Thank you for posting the side image of the stone in St.marks. this is the first time I have been able to see it from this angle. And (in my opinion) gives so much more towards the argument that it is Macedonian than just the front by itself. The similarities between The image of a known Macedonian tomb and the side image of the st.mark stone is, to me, unmistakable. Especially when you take into account the front image. It looks like the stone is propped up in a display kind of fashion. is it in an area of the building that is able to be visited? And is there an " official" story about the stone's origins that it's caretakers go by?
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by Taphoi »

spitamenes wrote:Taphoi,
Thank you for posting the side image of the stone in St.marks. this is the first time I have been able to see it from this angle. And (in my opinion) gives so much more towards the argument that it is Macedonian than just the front by itself. The similarities between The image of a known Macedonian tomb and the side image of the st.mark stone is, to me, unmistakable. Especially when you take into account the front image. It looks like the stone is propped up in a display kind of fashion. is it in an area of the building that is able to be visited? And is there an " official" story about the stone's origins that it's caretakers go by?
Hi Spitamenes,
Glad you find these images helpful. The star-shield sculpture was found embedded in the foundations of the main apse of the Basilica di San Marco (about 8m from the original resting place of the putative corpse of St Mark in the crypt) in about 1960 by Forlati. He extracted it and it now rests in the Church's Sculpture Museum which is in the Cloister of Saint Apollonia, just across the canal of the Bridge of Sighs behind San Marco. It can be visited daily for a small fee. The Church arranged for the University of Venice to examine a sample of its stone after I pointed out the coincidence with the possibility that St Mark's corpse was that of Alexander in my first book: The Lost Tomb of Alexander the Great. This happened in about 2005-6. The examination showed that the block is made of Late Cretaceous limestone with rudist fossils. Similar stone is found in a Roman era quarry at Aurisina near Trieste, so the University of Venice declared the block to be Roman. I pointed out in my revised and updated book, The Quest for the Tomb of Alexander the Great (2007), that the Late Cretaceous limestone with rudist fossils was laid down all the way around the Mediterranean in an ancient ocean. In particular there are outcrops next to the Nile at Abu Roash in Egypt, where an Old Kingdom pyramid was virtually quarried away as a source of sculptural quality stone for Alexandria by the Greeks and the Romans. Meanwhile the University of Venice has realised that it is impossible that the iconography of the sculpture is Roman (for all the reasons we have discussed and more), so they have adopted the last ditch defence that some Roman General saw a Macedonian tomb when the Romans invaded Egypt and liked it so much that he ordered an exact copy from the Aurisina quarry when he got back (I kid you not!) Such is the state of play. There is a detailed version of all the information on the star-shield block in the "Sword in the Stone" chapter of my book on The Quest for the Tomb of Alexander the Great.
Best wishes,
Andrew
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by agesilaos »

Nunc rem intellego, I had not considered the central motif; in my opinion, the starburst was iconic enough to be dispensed with on these coins and substituted for something of more immediate symbolism; Pyrrhos' monogram, the head of Pan or Gonatas, the symbol of the makedonian koine etc. I know others think these devices were borne on actual shields, Duncan Head and the wargames fraternity for example. I forgot to add that numismatists frequently interpret BA as 'basileou' ie issued by the King.

A kopis/macheira could be used on foot just as easily as mounted and is shown on many vases being wielded by infantrymen; asa far as I know there is no evidence for the use of a shield with a xyston (or cavalry sarissa if you like). Later cavalry types which possessed shields seem to have been javelin armed, nor are greaves the mark of a cavalryman; there is no reason why Lyson and Kallikles should not have been infantry officers.

I agree totally that the block is hellenistic, which almost guarantees that it is from the Eastern Med, the West being Carthaginian with the exception of varying amounts of Sicily! Polititi's Macedonian, refering to the star motif is general rather than specific, ie it is culturally Macedonian rather than originating in Macedon itself, without discounting that possibility it could originate in any Hellenistic kingdom.

The provenance must be unrecoverable given the chronological gulf between its carving and the building of the church, but the Venetian explanation of a copy-cat general should definitely be filed under BS or MT in Italian (credo) :P
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by agesilaos »

Seleucis  shield coin antiochos I
Seleucis shield coin antiochos I
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and Antiochos III
and Antiochos III
ant iii.jpg (27.35 KiB) Viewed 6179 times
Ptolemaic iconography seems to have gelled early with eagles on the bronzes and the Attallids of Pergamon had no Macedonian connection and alternated between the cista, the local cult symbol and a bow in honour of the dynasty's founder Philetairos - a eunuch founding a dynasty! Unfortunately there is not a database like Wildwinds for sculpture.
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by Paralus »

The precise dating of the addition of shields to the panoply of Macedonian / Greek cavalry is a matter of debate. That such occurred during the time of Alexander is not and certainly not before Pyrrhus' dalliances in Italy. The only representations of such are on Paullus' monument to his victory at Pydna.

The shield on the stone seems clearly to be a phalangite shield and one of a time later than Philip / Alexander given that it is deeply bowled (these become more common in the art / iconography of later Hellenistic times). It pales in comparison to that found in the so called tomb of Philip II.
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by spitamenes »

Agesilaos,
Do you know if the image on the first coin you posted is supposed to be an anchor in the center? I can't see it very well but that's what it looks like to me. And last I knew, historians did not think that style anchor was invented untill the later Roman times. Nothing to do with the thread, just curious.
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Re: Macedonian Shield

Post by agesilaos »

Yes it is an anchor and there is one above the elephant on the Antiochus III coin too; this style of anchor is common on Seleucid coins as it was the dynastic symbol, Seleukos Nikator was meant to have an anchor birthmark on his thigh (I think that is in Justin or Aelian). That type of anchor has a much older pedegree certainly 5th century BC at least.
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