athenas owl wrote:
The" two Hephaistions" ? The boy that was in the wrestling scene was the same blond boy in the Mieza scene. Patrick Carroll. He was sitting apart, not next to Alexander (a theme carried through the film, rightly or wrongly...wrongly I think, but nevertheless, the same boy.)
The wrestling scene, while in part was to introduce the "boys", it also reflects as Ptolemy pointed out in the narration, it was where he found his sanity, with his friends. And to introduce the idea that Hephaistion was always honest with him "Would you want me to let you win?"...again, that theme was not developed very fully except it was also a nifty way to introduce the "Hephaistion's thighs" quote.
I don't think anyone will ever be able to do Alexander justice, in a way that everyone agrees on, in a film. Stone went a way that did not dwell on the deeds (though had he enough money and time he would have) but the interior man. Obviously this was not what people wanted or it was not the interior man they see.
Like Burton's film, you just can't win. Part of the big flaw of THAT film was they spent so much time on his early years they ran out of "juice" and the later years were neglected. From a socioogical viewpoint, I do find it interesting that Hephaistion was pretty much completely left out. Too problematic?
The Final cut is my favourite, fleshed out. I do love this film, but then I really love Stone, have for decades. "My" Alexander is not his, but then I don't have the gumption to make a film about him either.
Hello athenas owl, thanks for your reply. Yes, Patrick Carroll is the boy in the wrestling scene, and the blond boy sitting apart from Alexander at Mieza, but the thing is, he wasn't orginally meant to play Hephaistion. I do like your point about the 'apartness' being carried forward, but I don't believe it was originally intended that way. I think that the boy sitting next to Alexander, and wearing a matching pendant (also carried forward into adulthood) was meant to be Hephaistion. But they filmed that scene first, and then the dark boy couldn't go to England to film the wrestling scene at Pinewood, so they had to give the part to Patrick Carroll, and have him speak Hephaistion's line at Mieza. That's why we don't see either of them say it, the camera is on Aristotle. So we have the 'real' Hephaistion sitting next to Alexander at Mieza, and the second Hephaistion in the wrestling scene.
I didn't see it myself, but a friend of mine did, and told me that Oliver Stone had admitted as much on one of those question-and-answer things he did on the Warner Bros website.
However, if you can 'see' Patrick Carroll as Hephaistion at Mieza, I can see that the scene would work for you. I can't, so for me, it doesn't.
I do agree with you so much that no-one will ever be able to do Alexander justice in a way that everyone agrees with, also that this film concentrated on the interior man.
I think it's a good thing that Stone had the definite plan that he was going to do that. I think he knew he couldn't do everything, show everything, so he made a decision to show what Alexander was like, rather than what he did.
So, in that sense, it didn't do him justice, because what he did is so vastly important, but just on the criterion of showing the interior man, I think Stone did a good job. As you say, it might not have been what people wanted to see, but although it's easy to think of
events he missed out, it's harder to think of facets of
personality that he missed out.
I agree with you about the Burton film, too. It started off promisingly, then seemed to run out of steam. Guilty of telescoping, same as Stone, but you can see why they have to do it. Some of the sets and costumes look laughably dated now, of course, but I have a great admiration for that film's script, particularly the excellent Athens scene.
And yes, Hephaistion was just one of the crowd in that one, wasn't he? I guess the world wasn't ready for him in - 1956, was it?
I agree very much with what Karen said about Stone actually pandering very much to conservative mores in his treatment of Hephaistion, but at least there is progress from the Burton film, (I'm ashamed to say I can't remember the director's name!) in that Hephaistion is a recognisable individual, and his importance to Alexander is there to be seen. Some may have wished for more, maybe some for less, but surely all will agree he deserves to stand out from the crowd.
Sorry about this long reply, but your post was so interesting!
Fiona