Alexander's speed

[Fiona]

One of the most awesome things about Alexander that really impresses me is his speed. It shows up in everything he does, but especially the section between the leaving of Susa and the capture of Bessus. Scarcely a paragraph goes by without a ‘rapid advance’, a ‘set off with all speed’ or a ‘without delay’. It’s impressive tactics, and takes people often by surprise, so I expect it’s a large part of the reason for his success. But more than that, I find that the cumulative effect, as I read, is the impression it gives of his personality.
It’s like the ‘show, don’t tell’ of good fiction – we don’t need to be told that Alexander was driven, single-minded and always had his mind on the next objective, because we’re shown it in the way he tackles every step.
It doesn’t seem to matter whether the objective is a vast treasure, a village of herdsmen or a rebellious royal – all receive the same dedication and attention.
I wonder, though, if he had an overall aim, if there ever was, for him, a ‘big picture’? Did he want to conquer the world? Did he just want to find the end of the world? Or was each objective, at the time, enough, so that he didn’t need to look too far ahead – it didn’t matter too much what the next objective was, so long as there was one?
He never seems to have lingered for the sake of it, and it can’t have been just getting wealth, or winning Asia, because he did those, but still didn’t stop.
Sometimes I get a feel of a mind I can’t even begin to comprehend - the depth of him takes me breath away.
Fiona

[amyntoros]

I wonder, though, if he had an overall aim, if there ever was, for him, a ‘big picture’? Did he want to conquer the world? Did he just want to find the end of the world? Or was each objective, at the time, enough, so that he didn’t need to look too far ahead – it didn’t matter too much what the next objective was, so long as there was one?

I can only offer my opinion because, unfortunately, I am unable to see into the mind of Alexander (I so wish he had kept his own journal!), but I do think that he did have a "big picture" in mind. For instance, it seems to me that the planning of the mass weddings in Susa could not have been last minute. Too much detail is involved, not to mention the time needed for the preparations and the fact that Alexander had the royal sisters (at least) learn Greek so far in advance of this ceremony. He couldn't have known in advance how long he would be delayed in Bactria and/or what would eventually transpire in India, and I think, personally, that he planned the weddings long before his return - I suspect even before his marriage to Roxane.

Then there are Alexander’s "last plans". There’s nothing that indicates these were made on his death bed, especially as he was to be actively involved in all of them. Therefore, they were only his last plans because he died unexpectedly before they could be implemented. Which suggests to me that at all other times Alexander had similar plans for the future, and probably checked them off, one by one, as they were accomplished.

Best regards,

[athenas owl]

I agree with amyntoros completely...

Though, this topic reminds me very much of the Japanese anime "Alexander Senki" or "Reign:The Conqueror"...which is what took me out of my cozy medieval studies.

In that anime, Alexander was all about "speed"... Sorry for the threadjack..I've just been thinking about that series for a few weeks.

[Theseus]

Amyntoros has brought up a very interesting idea. What if Alexander did keep a journal. Can you imagine having insight into how he thought?! How he planned his battles? Who would have been in charge of keeping it safe? Would it have been kept with his copy of the Iliad?

Who knows, maybe he did have one and it's been sadly lost. or maybe some archeologist will come acorss it some day.

[Semiramis]

I think the earliest example of autobiographical writing comes from the Mughal conqueror of India, Babur, who apparently wrote in his personal diary every night. Tales of battles, intrigue, love and drunken nights out... I've been meaning to read this for ages.

https://www.gmpublications.com/product_ ... s_id=13002

[marcus]

I think the earliest example of autobiographical writing comes from the Mughal conqueror of India, Babur, who apparently wrote in his personal diary every night. Tales of battles, intrigue, love and drunken nights out... I've been meaning to read this for ages.

https://www.gmpublications.com/product_ ... s_id=13002

By which you mean a "diary" rather than an autobiography, I assume? Because I wonder where Caesar's Bellum Gallico fits in (ignoring the blatant propagandist purpose and slant, of course ... but it's still his record of the war).

(I'm not including the Res Gestae Divi Augusti, because it's such a completely different kettle of fish - but I don't want anyone to think I haven't considered it!)

Marco Polo? Again, not a diary as such, and I understand there is a school of thought that it should be sold with a large salt cellar (from which to take large pinches); but still autobiographical writing (and pre-dating Babur).

ATB

[Fiona]

I can only offer my opinion because, unfortunately, I am unable to see into the mind of Alexander (I so wish he had kept his own journal!), but I do think that he did have a "big picture" in mind. For instance, it seems to me that the planning of the mass weddings in Susa could not have been last minute. Too much detail is involved, not to mention the time needed for the preparations and the fact that Alexander had the royal sisters (at least) learn Greek so far in advance of this ceremony. He couldn't have known in advance how long he would be delayed in Bactria and/or what would eventually transpire in India, and I think, personally, that he planned the weddings long before his return - I suspect even before his marriage to Roxane.

That's very interesting, because at first I wouldn't have thought of things like that. I'd have called them 'forward planning' rather than a big picture, but when I think about it, you're absolutely right. You wouldn't make a plan like those weddings in the first place, unless you had a big picture firmly in mind. I wish he had kept a journal too - it would be wonderful to know what he was really thinking. I wonder he started thinking along dynastic lines, and planning weddings?
Maybe not before Babylon. He had time to stop and think, there.

Then there are Alexander’s "last plans". There’s nothing that indicates these were made on his death bed, especially as he was to be actively involved in all of them. Therefore, they were only his last plans because he died unexpectedly before they could be implemented. Which suggests to me that at all other times Alexander had similar plans for the future, and probably checked them off, one by one, as they were accomplished.

I think he may have thought of some of them as he went along, too. He might have returned to the Caspian Sea area, perhaps, rather than Arabia, until he realised what a good sea route the Persian Gulf was? (I know this is all just speculation, but with the debate going on elsewhere about the kinds of posts and forums, may I just add that I do like this kind of thing - conversational, pondering sort of threads!)
Fiona

[Fiona]

You like 'Reign: the Conqueror'? I had a look at that - I wanted to like it, very much, but I just couldn't get into it. I think it was the Sci-FI look of the setting. That, and Hephaistion's purple hair...
Fiona

I agree with amyntoros completely...

Though, this topic reminds me very much of the Japanese anime "Alexander Senki" or "Reign:The Conqueror"...which is what took me out of my cozy medieval studies.

In that anime, Alexander was all about "speed"... Sorry for the threadjack..I've just been thinking about that series for a few weeks.

[Fiona]

Who knows, maybe he did have one and it's been sadly lost. or maybe some archeologist will come acorss it some day.

We can dream... yes, and his copy of the Iliad too, both still inside the beautiful box from Damascus. (If I'm going to dream, I like to dream something good!)
Fiona

[Semiramis]

By which you mean a "diary" rather than an autobiography, I assume? Because I wonder where Caesar's Bellum Gallico fits in (ignoring the blatant propagandist purpose and slant, of course ... but it's still his record of the war).

(I'm not including the Res Gestae Divi Augusti, because it's such a completely different kettle of fish - but I don't want anyone to think I haven't considered it!)

Marco Polo? Again, not a diary as such, and I understand there is a school of thought that it should be sold with a large salt cellar (from which to take large pinches); but still autobiographical writing (and pre-dating Babur).

ATB

Agree about Marco Polo. I think its quite likely that large parts of it would be more appropriately labeled as "fiction" than biography. Also, apparently its possible that he didn't write it himself but rather a novel writer. Which brings the "auto" part of it into question as well.

With the Baburnama, "first autobiography" is what the publishers are calling it. I personally would have gone with "diary" like you. In fact, I wonder if Babur thought many people would read it. He wrote it in Chughtai Turkish, his mother tongue, rather than Persian - the language of the court. If one wanted to dissemenate it, surely the language of learning and literature in the region at the time would be the one to go for. We know from his poetry that he was more than proficient in Farsi.

It's a refreshing historical document as 'Baburnama' doesn't seem to have overt propagandistic purposes. He writes about a lot of personal things like falling in love for the first time. Or "I was so drunk. I am told I rode back to the tent holding a torch. I don't remember this. I vomited a lot." "Most people drink, regret it, then vow to give up. I vowed to give up drinking, and now regret not drinking." "I miss Samarkand so much, the other day I cried when I ate a melon." There are the brutally honest assessments of his relatives' characters. "If there was a handsome young man anywhere in his domain, my uncle would try to have his way with him".

There is a lot of historically useful information too. But a lot of the "diary"/"autobiography" just doesn't seem to serve any political purpose. Also notable is the lack of any attempt to justify his conquests. There seems to be this assumption that this descendant of Genghis Khan and Timur Lane simply deserves a kingdom. Of course, he did not feel the same way about his near relatives trying to their hand in conquest. Not to mention those pesky Uzbeks. Who did they think they were??

However people choose to classify it, the document is a uniquely intimate and fascinating look into a conqueror's life, thoughts and emotions. With perhaps less spin than many other historical texts.

[Paralus]

What if Alexander did keep a journal. Can you imagine having insight into how he thought?!

Particularly in the beginning or the last eighteen months or so.

[Semiramis]

Paralus, I find it somewhat amusing that Freddie Mercury is of Persian and Indian descent...

[Paralus]

Ironic might be the term?

[Phoebus]

I wonder, though, if he had an overall aim, if there ever was, for him, a ‘big picture’? Did he want to conquer the world? Did he just want to find the end of the world? Or was each objective, at the time, enough, so that he didn’t need to look too far ahead – it didn’t matter too much what the next objective was, so long as there was one?

That's a very good question, Fiona.

I get the feeling that he honestly thought India was it--the final frontier and the end of his feasible conquests. Alexander could be quite cruel on occassion, but lying to his troops about where he felt the end of the world was just to induce them on one more conquest seems petty, though. Had they beaten the Nanda kings only to discover there were yet uncharted (by the Greeks, at any rate) lands, he would have had to turn about anyways.

Reaching that end, the edge of the world, seems to have been part of the "romantic" Alexander (the half that wasn't terrorizing NW India's populations). The fact that he didn't seem too hell-bent on heading north kind of reinforces that to me.

[Semiramis]

I get the feeling that he honestly thought India was it--the final frontier and the end of his feasible conquests. Alexander could be quite cruel on occassion, but lying to his troops about where he felt the end of the world was just to induce them on one more conquest seems petty, though. Had they beaten the Nanda kings only to discover there were yet uncharted (by the Greeks, at any rate) lands, he would have had to turn about anyways.

Reaching that end, the edge of the world, seems to have been part of the "romantic" Alexander (the half that wasn't terrorizing NW India's populations). The fact that he didn't seem too hell-bent on heading north kind of reinforces that to me.

Hi Pheobus,

It doesn't seem likely to me that Alexander believed that the Kingdom of the Nandas was the edge of the world. I just don't see a practical man like Alexander burying his head in Aristotle's musings about circling oceans and ignoring local knowledge.

To me, it's very likely that the Achaemenid Kings were aware of the silk route. Swathes of the Persian Royal Road coincide with it. One can't underestimate the importance of trade in that empire. Here's the discovery of an Achaemenid settlement in Bam in Iran. According to the archaeologists, it's a city that developed between 6th and 4th centuries BC trading in cotton and yes.. silk.

http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news ... cgi/2/3607

Darius I had sent out expeditions to gather information, with his captain exploring as far east as the mouth of the Indus river.

Apparently silk was found in an Egyptian mummy dating all the way back to 1070 BC. And I imagine a land route through Persia is the most likely one.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 2025b0.pdf

All this information taken together, its not impossible that the Achaemenids had some idea of the existence of the area that is now China. The Achaemenid royal archives would have had records of their knowledge of the outside world along with other information related to trade, security and potential conquest. Once Alexander captured the capitals, these would have fallen into his hands.

We know that there were two Indian exiles in Alexander's court and that he made (fearful so presumably honest) allies once he was over the Hindu Kush. The Indian epic Mahabharata - most of it written well before Alexander - mentions Chinese dynasties and trade with China on more than one occasion.

The emperor Asoka - not too long after Alexander - is reported to have sent Buddhist missionaries to what is modern day western China. Burma was brought into the fold of Buddhism during Asoka's lifetime. The Arthashastra, written during Asoka's reign, also mentions China and Chinese silk clothing. Arthashastra was written in one of Asoka's cultural capitals - Taxilla, a city that should be familiar to those interested in Alexander.

It seems logical that Alexander would plan his military expeditions having gathered as much knowledge as possible. So, it is difficult for me to imagine that he thought that the kingdom of the Nandas was the end of the world. His Indian allies certainly knew it wasn't (well, modern day Pakistan). Hellenophillic academics might find Aristotle the only source worth studying closely but how can such a successful military planner like Alexander afford that degree of tunnel vision?