Alexander's height

[Tre]

Hello Gina:Olympias' brother's name was also Alexander. Rumor had it he was one of Philip's lovers as a boy. When he became of age, Philip made him King of Epirus which he was entitled to by blood (as was Alexander, which is one of the reasons why he was not welcomed by his Uncle in Epirus when he fled with his mother there after the argument with his father at his wedding to Cleopatra-Eurydike. The other reason was, he wasn't about to anger Philip so Alexander left his mother with her brother and went on to Illyria). In order to further cement his relationship with Alexander of Epirus he married his daughter Cleopatra to him. Marrying an uncle was typical in those times. This also nullified any requests by the angered Olympias to her brother about stirring up trouble with Philip. At the same time Philip performed several other things - by removing Cleopatra he removed the last family member from Pella that supported Alexander as part of a process that would have left Alexander with no supporters (several of his primary friends had already been exiled from Macedon), while at the same time attempting to make it appear as an 'honor' for all the Greeks to see, hence the big marriage celebration (and therefore make it appear there was no rift between father and son to discourage Greek and Persian attempts to meddle in family affairs by perhaps supporting the heir against the father)that eventually would turn out very much as the King did not want, with his assasination which he was trying to avoid.Alexander's direct family was wiped out after he died. First Statiera his Persian wife was murdered, then Olympias was killed by Cassander and then some years later his son Alexander IV and his wife Roxane died at Cassander's hand as well. Barsine his mistress and Alexander's illegitimate son Herakles were also killed, the later being strangled after a banquet at the behest of Cassander and Polysperchon who betrayed the teen. Last, Cleopatra was killed by Antigonus when Ptolemy offered to bring her to Egypt as his bride. As she was well past child bearing age, this was a particularly inexcusable murder. We do not know what became of Cleopatra's children she had by Alexander of Epirus, who was killed not long after their marriage.Whew!

[karen]

Yes, of course, you are all right, Arrhidaios must have had armour, even if just for appearance's sake. (The post-323 history is *not* my forte...)I doubt he fought, though. Because as royalty he'd have been expected to command, and if he'd commanded, we'd surely hear something about him leading a battle, or even just a unit, in the histories. In fact, he would either have worked in concert with Alexander, in which case we'd see his name in the battle-orders of Issos, Gaugamela, etc., or else against Alexander, something the sources would also mention for sure, however it turned out.In fact -- if he'd had no physical or mental infirmity at all, he'd have been educated and groomed to be king, rather than Alexander, since he was the elder -- the fact that his father named him after himself, *Philip* Arrhidaios (at birth, before the deficit was apparent) to me makes that clear. He'd have been Aristotle's pupil, or at least one of them. (To my mind the fact that he was older than Alexander also precludes any possibility that he was pretending to be half-witted; there'd have been no need.)Besides, Plutarch says explicitly that Arrhidaios was retarded. Curtius does not, but it's obvious bewteen the lines that Arrhidaios's decisions, immediately post-Alexander, are all in truth being made by Meleager. Arrian, I don't know (my copy's loaned out at the moment).So then the question becomes, how sizeable a man was Arrhidaios? And is that armour at all worn or scratched or dented, as if it was used in battle? Perhaps, alas, time has erased any clues...For what it's worth, my vote re Alexander's height is somewhere between 5'4" and 5'5".Love & peace,
Karen

[karen]

Tre wrote:
"as was Alexander, which is one of the reasons why he was not welcomed by his Uncle in Epirus when he fled with his mother there after the argument with his father..."How do we know he was not welcomed by his uncle? Is it direct from a source, or inferred from the fact he didn't stay?Love & peace,
Karen

[Nicator]

...also interesting to note, that Olympias contacted Craterus (Alexander's best surviving general) to offer Cleopatra in marriage right after ATG died. That didn't go, and eventually, Perdiccas wooed her...but before that could happen he was murdered in his tent. I think by Seleucus and Polysperchon.

[susan]

The proposed marriage was with Leonnatos - Krateros was already allied with Antipater's family through his intended marriage with Phila. According to the Suda, Leonnatos was a relative of Philip II's mother, so it would have been a suitable marriage for her. After Alexander's death he was an ally of Perdiccas, but they fell out and he made plans to return to Macedonia & claim the throne. He discussed this with Eumenes, who slipped away and told Perdikkas. He was killed at the battle of Lamia. Perdikkas then considered wooing Cleopatra but he couldn't decide between her and Antipater's daughter, and it all went horribly wrong for him too.Susan

[susan]

We don't actually know how old Arrhidaeos was - the Macedonian kings were polygamous so even if Philip married Philinna first, Arrhidaeos could have been born later. We discussed this on the forum a few weeks ago.Secondly, he probably took the name 'Philip' at his accession to the throne, to give him a more royal name. This was fairly common then, and still happens today - King George VI only became George on his accession in 1936 - his name up till then was 'Albert' - or 'Bertie'. One version of the Alexander Romance states that Alexander was named after a previous son of Philip's who had died; while this cannot be relied on as fact it indicates what might have happened - that the same royal names were re-used to keep the name going, given the infant & childhood mortality. I don't know, either, that Arrhidaeos would have been the natural heir even if healthy and older than Alexander; his mother seems not to have been royal although she probably wasn't a dancer, and she was not Macedonian but Thessalian. Olympias was the most royal-born of Philip's wives, and acted as such; her son would have had the most likelihood of being Philip's heir, and Philip treated him as such; but the fact that Alexander was so threatened by Philip's last marriage shows that the naming of the heir was in Philip's hands.The armour is too worn and corroded to give much information. The point about the iron helmet being a one-off seems unlikely - I've just done a search and immediately found :
http://www.artmuseums.harvard.edu/sardi ... .htmlwhich shows one over 200 years earlier. The armour found in the grave matches the style of those worn by Alexander, but it's known that many of his successors copied his appearance - he was no doubt the fashion leader too.RegardsSusan

[susan]

Just to add to this, about Cleopatra's children:The Macedonian and Epirote royal families were closely allied.Olympias' sister Troas was married to their uncle Arybbas who became king after their father died; on his death Olympias' brother Alexander took over, and married Cleopatra; on his death Olympias returned and the throne went to Aeacides, the son of Troas & Arybbas; Olympias seems to have been on good terms with him so she must have accepted his claim to the throne, over those of Cleopatra's children - if they were still alive.He had three children - Deidamia, who was betrothed to Alexander IV but then married Demetrius Poliorcetes ( I think), Troas and a son Pyrrhus, who became the famous Pyrrhus of Epiros.Since Cleopatra's children, if they had survived, would no doubt have been important dynastic marriage partners, I think it's likely that they didn't.Susan

[marcus]

I don't think that a lack of mention of Arrhidaios fighting is any indication that he didn't. After all, there is no mention of Eumenes fighting during the first 8 years or so (if not more) of the campaign, and yet Alexander gave him military commands later, and he ended up being one of the more successful of the diadochi in the early years of the succession struggle.See Elizabeth Carney's article in AHB: "The Trouble With Philip Arridaios". Her conclusion is that he was very probably 'retarted', but he wasn't mentally ill (according to modern psychological usage); which would in no way preclude him from fighting as one of the hetairoi, for example. The fact that he wasn't strong enough to hold a command does not mean that he could not fight in the phalanx or in a cavalry unit, and effectively.When he became 'king', it is the fact that he was an Argead that was important, not whether he was able to lead armies into battle.All the bestMarcus

[Tre]

Logical deduction. No one keeps an unwanted heir around, particularly to your own kingdom, especially if he is heir to your master as well. Out of family obligation he had to offer shelter to his sister, but not to her adult son. In addition, Alexander of Epirus would have known exactly where he stood when it came to who to support - had he allowed Alexander to stay there, he would have had to turn him over to Philip which put him in a nasty position with his sister and having offered shelter to Alexander, not a very nice one with the King either. Philip had killed men for less than what Alexander had done, humiliating him at his own wedding party, even if Alexander could not have swallowed the mortal insult of being called a bastard by his new 'Uncle' Attalus and therefore not entitled to Kingship. It was a 'lose-lose' situation for him, so the kid had to go and off he went to Illyria where Philip's most intractable enemies resided.Because when push came to shove, Alexander of Epirus supported Philip, and that would be one of the reasons why he got a direct marriage tie and therefore Argead membership to Philip through his marriage to Cleopatra. There were comments made between the Alexanders about each other that made it into history, and they were indicitive of a strong dislike for each other.Regards,Tre

[Nicator]

Hi Susan,Of course you are right...it's been a couple of weeks since I returned the book which contained the info, so I'm trying to go off of memory. Thanks for correcting though. "According to the Suda" the who? Not sure what the Suda is?later Nicator

[susan]

http://www.stoa.org/solTo quote from the STOA site:
The Suda is a 10th century Byzantine historical encyclopedia in five volumes, derived from the scholia to critical editions of canonical works and from compilations by earlier authors. As the Oxford Classical Dictionary notes, "in spite of its contradictions and other ineptitudes, [the Suda] is of the highest importance, since it preserves (however imperfectly) much that is ultimately derived from the earliest or best authorities in ancient scholarship, and includes material from many departments of Greek learning and civilization." The Suda has never been translated into English, and that is one goal of this project, but there are many other ways in which an electronic version can offer increased accessibility: the collaborators aim to produce a keyword-searchable database with annotations, bibliography, and links to Perseus, the TLG and other important electronic resources.
The electronic version is a bit sparse at present, but with time it should evolve. There are a lot of small items that add to the main sources but it takes some effort to find themSusan

[Nicator]

NICE!tnx for the info...
Nicator

[karen]

Hi Marcus & Susan:I suppose it's true, if Arrhidaios had enough mental capacity to undertake the military training and to follow orders ("Persians *that* way -- kill!") he might have fought. I guess it depends on the degree of his mental handicap. Curtius certainly has him speaking, and I guess it's inconceivable that the Makedones could have accepted him as king for any length of time if he couldn't speak.Now I have read but one ancient source on the aftermath of Alexander's death -- Curtius -- and in his account, when the suggestion of Arrhidaios as king is made, everyone is stunned silent. Not stunned that anyone would suggest a half-wit, because they go on to *favour* him -- but stunned, it seems, at the reminder of his existence, or the news of his royal potential. To me that means the Makedones were not very familiar with him, which suggests that, like many mentally-handicapped people, he'd lived sequestered -- not as a soldier in a unit. So it seems to me, from Curtius, anyway.Re Arrhidaios being older than Alexander, I wasn't sure where I knew it from, except the old faithful 'I read it somewhere.' I went back and read the March thread on it as you suggested, Susan, and Karl's argument seems sensible if complex. But still, if people are assuming that Arr.'s older because Philip married his mother first, you are right, we can't.Love & peace,
Karen

[jan]

Well, this post confirms one of two things, either that great minds run in the same channels, or that it is just pure coincidence, but I had just read that statistic in Michael Wood's book on Alexander that King Philip is 5 foot two inches, and that that is a known historic fact so I was being generous in giving Alexander an inch or so. I just considered it rather an odd coincidence to have made that comment the night before I read it on this board.I guess most jockeys might identify with Alexander, and men of short stature have often demonstrated athletic prowess. In a child's book on Alexander, I saw a picture of him standing up against King Porus, in which Alexander clearly looks diminutive.

[Cockroach]

Well since Alexander usually appeared with the
macedonian nobility (which like most other
nobilities were better off allround than the rest of
society), he was said to be small, presumably in
relation to his usual companions, who being
members of the Nobility were better fed, looked
after, etc. so he probably was about average
height of a regular 'citizen' of Macedon.