Alexander's remains

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agesilaos
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

It is you who have argued certainty. It is I who have argued uncertainty. Since there is uncertainty, there is nothing for me to admit to being wrong about.
Aside from the statements that Ptolemy was Alexander's brother et al ad infinitum, just where is the uncertainty? Or is the position 'If I disagree there is uncertainty', so in the face of a lack of unanimity, the earth is flat, aliens exist and the CIA may have killed Kennedy!

Since your Laomedon scenario has been dealt with; or do you not accept that? Let us consider your other proposition that BCHP3 refers to an unknown engagement between the Royal Army and Ptolemy in Year four of Arrhidaios; we can immediately any putative conflict between Memphis and Triparadeisos, Ptolemy was confirmed in his satrap, unlikely for a rebel. The Royal Army splits and is inactive due to Antipatros' deadhand and suffers desertions over winter but is entirely focused on Eumenes and the remaining Perdikkans. Ptolemy's friendship is stated as a reason for Kassandros being hopeful of an alliance in Diod XVIII 49 iii, unlikely had his father been attacked by Ptolemy, equally Kassandros uses his alliance with Ptolemy as an incentive for alliance with the only other possessor of a Royal Army at that time, Antigonos 54 iii, again unlikely if Ptolemy had attacked him, though where he could have found the time is moot, after Ptolemy's absorption of Coele-Syria Antpatros was in Macedon and Antigonos busy attacking Eumenes and then Alketas. He could have attacked the watching force Antigonos left shadowing Alketas, but Ptolemy is consistently against the Perdikkans, even when Eumenes recieves the Royal mandate, and Antigonos' corps d'observation was certainly not 'slaughtered', indeed for the numbers given for his forces to work out they must have remained intact.

So there really is no room for uncertainty, there is only one satrap of Egypt during this period and his only collision with Royal Forces resulting in their slaughter is the Perdikkan campaign.
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by amyntoros »

Yes, if anyone noticed, I just deleted a post of mine. Completely misread/misunderstood who was saying what and therefore my post made no sense whatsoever! Guess that's what can happen if you have been to a Christmas party the night before and have not quite recovered!

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Taphoi »

Xenophon wrote:Does not logic dictate that you too accept the 'balance of probability', however reluctantly ??
I'm afraid that you have misunderstood my position. I have not and do not object to anyone preferring the Low Chronology "on the balance of probability". I have only objected to the assertion here that the Low Chronology is certain. Actually, you appear to be siding with me in conceding that it is uncertain. Where I potentially differ with you is that you seem to believe that because a few prominent academics have preferred the Low Chronology recently, we should all prefer it, else apparently be convicted by their jury (and excommunicated or something?)

The communis opinio is insubstantial and inconsequential until the evidence is irrefutable. It used to be communis opinio that Cleitarchus wrote before 300BC, but a few scraps of papyrus have recently overturned that.

Whilst the evidence remains uncertain, it is perfectly legitimate for anyone to prefer either high or low chronology for the early period and to argue for or against either from the evidence, which is what I have done. I would note that the evident ill temper (bile and opprobrium?) of certain individuals regarding my Laomedon hypothesis betrays their frustration at having proven unable to refute it. It is I think the proper objection to the Low Chronology, whether or not anybody has aired it before.

My preference continues to be for High Chronology around 320BC and that opinion is based in the evidence and is not susceptible to anybody's vote. I do not dispute the possibility that Low Chronology is correct and I am open to changing my opinion in the face of new evidence, but I have actually become more and more convinced that the Chronicle has been overplayed by the failure of its proponents to substantiate their interpretation in the context of the present debate. There are many problems with Low Chronology. Whereas I agree that Diodorus omits the 321/0BC year boundary, according to Low Chronology, it would have to immediately follow his 322/1BC year boundary with no events in between. As I have said, it would be an empty year. Horrible!

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by amyntoros »

Only a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a noted professor about the current debates on Pothos. I had said that when participants in debates begin to include personal insults my first instinct is to step in with a warning or remove the offending remarks. However, when all participants in a particular discussion appear not to object and are quite capable of either holding their own or firing back, then I'm inclined to leave well enough alone rather than appearing to stifle a debate. Sometimes though, enough is enough. The latest example :
Taphoi wrote: I would note that the evident ill temper (bile and opprobrium?) of certain individuals regarding my Laomedon hypothesis betrays their frustration at having proven unable to refute it.


For the record, at least one other person has refrained from responding in kind, but that's neither here nor there as far as the whole debate is concerned. This has to end. I am getting really tired of attempts to "poison the well". Will ALL participants please read through their posts before submitting them and self-edit any remarks of this nature, otherwise they will be seeing "edited by moderator" in this discussion. I will give this a few days for members to adjust, then I'm stepping in.

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Xenophon »

see below....
Taphoi wrote:
Xenophon wrote:Does not logic dictate that you too accept the 'balance of probability', however reluctantly ??
I'm afraid that you have misunderstood my position. I have not and do not object to anyone preferring the Low Chronology "on the balance of probability". I have only objected to the assertion here that the Low Chronology is certain. Actually, you appear to be siding with me in conceding that it is uncertain.
No, I don't believe I have misunderstood your position, despite the changes over the last ten pages of this lengthy thread ...and you have certainly misunderstood mine. While I have stated that little is 'certain' in history as to be beyond reasonable doubt in a very general sense, that is not the same thing at all as agreeing with you about possible chronologies.

Where I potentially differ with you is that you seem to believe that because a few prominent academics have preferred the Low Chronology recently, we should all prefer it, else apparently be convicted by their jury (and excommunicated or something?)
We are not talking about "a few prominent academics", and it is not a matter of "preference" - one can 'prefer' something highly unlikely, or even irrational, if one chooses to, to prop up one's own beliefs, and you are not alone in this. It is a common human trait. Relevant examples here are Bosworth's initial 'fudging' by trying to explain away evidence that flatly contradicted the 'high' chronology by suggesting that Arrhidaeus and Alexander III must have 'co-ruled' Babylon for a year, in order to shift Arrhidaeus' reign back a year - on no evidence whatsover. Beloch's initial reaction was that "the scribe must have made a mistake" (!!!), again based on no evidence whatsoever. I shan't go into the long history of 'high' versus 'low' that goes back over 50 years. Suffice to say that by the nineties, the 'high' proponents were in a very small minority, but thanks to A. B. Bosworth and his pupil Pat Wheatley, made something of a comeback. Unfortunately, lurking in the wings were the 'assyriologists' who studied the cuneiform tablets and ostraka - and who as a matter of the norm followed the 'low' chronology for this period, in blissful ignorance of debate among Hellenistic historians. Once Bosworth became aware of the assyriologists and their new evidence, he encouraged Tom Boiy and Cornelia Wunsch to apply this new evidence to the Hellenistic debate, eagerly promising new papers on the matter. The result was Boiy's "eclectic" or mixed chronology, which he set out in his 2007 book. Since that time Bosworth no longer espouses the 'high chronology' for the period 323-320, and as we have seen, his student Wheatley is now a supporter of the 'eclectic' chronology, actively collaborating with Boiy on one or more papers. No-one else has come forward with evidence that refutes Boiy. Even you have singularly failed to come up with any actual evidence to support your 'Laomedon' hypothesis. It is just an assertion that has been shown here to be unlikely in the extreme.

The communis opinio is insubstantial and inconsequential until the evidence is irrefutable. It used to be communis opinio that Cleitarchus wrote before 300BC, but a few scraps of papyrus have recently overturned that.

"insubstantial and inconsequential" ? I don't think so. The whole academic world of Hellenistic history more or less accepts the 'eclectic' chronology, based on the new chronological evidence from not just one, but several cuneiform 'document collections', and not just from Babylon either. The fact that it hasn't been refuted, as I just mentioned, in the last 5 years, DOES make it "irrefutable".

Your point about Cleitarchus is a fair one. The 'communis opinio' is subject to change, because open-minded people will change their views upon the revelation of new evidence - which is what Bosworth and Wheatley have done in this instance. But so far ( other than in the detail) there is little 'wiggle room'......the 'high' versus 'low' debate is closed, and the 'eclectic' is accepted, and will continue to be unless and until some new evidence appears - and even then that cannot negate what is already there, but more likely, simply resolve 'wiggle room' issues and pin down the particular seasons and months of the chronology.


Whilst the evidence remains uncertain, it is perfectly legitimate for anyone to prefer either high or low chronology for the early period and to argue for or against either from the evidence, which is what I have done. I would note that the evident ill temper (bile and opprobrium?) of certain individuals regarding my Laomedon hypothesis betrays their frustration at having proven unable to refute it. It is I think the proper objection to the Low Chronology, whether or not anybody has aired it before.
The new evidence is NOT uncertain here. It is solid ( doesn't come much more solid than baked clay tablets ! ) and has not ( so far) been refuted, nor even an attempt to do so. No one, other than you, believes that the "king versus Satrap of Egypt whose troops get slaughtered" refers to Laomedon, or could even possibly refer to Laomedon. Unfortunately, your argument is not evidence based. Frustration at a bald assertion without any evidence to support it is understandable. Your position is similar to that of the pet shopkeeper in the famous Monty Python "Parrot sketch"...."This parrot is dead! .....It might be asleep. Norwegian Blues sleep a lot !"
One can 'prefer' whatever belief one wishes, no matter how irrational it is to continue to do so - that the earth is flat, or aliens exist etc, but that doesn't make such a belief 'legitimate', nor a 'proper objection'. Go back to my post of December 12 th and its quotation of Sir Francis Bacon, for that is precisely what you are doing here - postulating an absurdity, rather than accept your belief system could be wrong. Bosworth, and Wheatley eventually accepted the overwhelming new evidence, despite their initial equally irrational objections. And you ???


My preference continues to be for High Chronology around 320BC and that opinion is based in the evidence and is not susceptible to anybody's vote. I do not dispute the possibility that Low Chronology is correct and I am open to changing my opinion in the face of new evidence, but I have actually become more and more convinced that the Chronicle has been overplayed by the failure of its proponents to substantiate their interpretation in the context of the present debate. There are many problems with Low Chronology. Whereas I agree that Diodorus omits the 321/0BC year boundary, according to Low Chronology, it would have to immediately follow his 322/1BC year boundary with no events in between. As I have said, it would be an empty year. Horrible!

What evidence would that be ? I have seen none of any substance for your point of view, though I have read the ten pages of this thread until my eyes bleed ! No-one is asking you to change your opinion on a 'vote' ( the majority are clearly not always right ). And clearly you are not going to change your mind..........you already refuse to do so in the light of a mountain ( literally ) of 'new' evidence from the cuneiform clay tablets - several 'document collections' in fact from as far apart as Aramaea and Babylon, all of which point in the same direction ! Far and away enough evidence to convince any rational person - which it has. If there are problems with 'low' chronology for the years 323-320, there are even more for 'high'....which means you are making a classic error, as Bacon said some 400 years ago, "..though there be a greater number and weight of instances found on the other side, yet these it either neglects or despises, or else by some distinction sets aside and rejects, in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusion may remain inviolate".
That would appear to be exactly what is happening here, on your part. Continue in your beliefs if you must.


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Andrew
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Taphoi »

Xenophon wrote:And clearly you are not going to change your mind..........you already refuse to do so in the light of a mountain ( literally ) of 'new' evidence from the cuneiform clay tablets - several 'document collections' in fact from as far apart as Aramaea and Babylon, all of which point in the same direction ! Far and away enough evidence to convince any rational person - which it has. If there are problems with 'low' chronology for the years 323-320, there are even more for 'high'....
I am open to being convinced by new evidence as I have said. What are the other tablets that confirm Low Chronology for 321-320BC? Please cite them or provide links.

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

Actually, the relevance of POxy LXII 4808 is not as clear cut as it seems, see the thread 'POxy LXXI 4808 and the date of Kleitarchos', it is another 'eye-bleeder' though.

Hey, did you hear the one about the guy who gloriously missed the point and thought there was only High and Low? He got kicked in the Eclectics :lol: OK, Amyntoros, it's a fair cop. How about when is evidence not evidence? When it contradicts my POV. :lol: How did I lose that job in the cracker factory?
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

Actually, the relevance of POxy LXII 4808 is not as clear cut as it seems, see the thread 'POxy LXXI 4808 and the date of Kleitarchos', it is another 'eye-bleeder' though.

Hey, did you hear the one about the guy who gloriously missed the point and thought there was only High and Low? He got kicked in the Eclectics :lol: OK, Amyntoros, it's a fair cop. How about when is evidence not evidence? When it contradicts my POV. :lol: How did I lose that job in the cracker factory?
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Paralus »

Taphoi wrote:I am open to being convinced by new evidence as I have said.
I seriously doubt that. This thread - and many others hereabouts - prove you are not. If anything they show that you decide then go looking for possible evidence; you are never wrong and never to be persuaded. If anyone involved in this thread needs to provide evidence it is yourself. As Xenophon has cogently observed you are profuse at assertion and pitiful at evidence. Your method, if such it could be described, is of primary school level. It does not do to "assert" (with no supporting evidence) making that assertion the subject of the debate whilst demanding others disprove said flat assertion. That is, as I've stated, to bring the tactics of the politician to an historical debate.

You seem to have a very convenient "academic" method: that which suits is incontrovertible; that which does not is "uncertain" (a level of understanding, on the evidence of this thread, you've yet to attain with respect to the cuneiform evidence) or "unsatisfactory". If anything is unsatisfactory about this thread it is your supposed "defense" of your increasingly desperate notion of BCHP 3 Obv.23-24 referring to Laomedon defending himself from Ptolemy; a notion you demand others disprove. On this you need to deal with the evidence as your rhetoric leaves you naked.

In the process of this you've accused me of not mentioning a missing year in Diodorus to suit my own argument ("Paralus fails to mention that, if Low Chronology is true, there is a year boundary missing in Diodorus’s own chronology..."). This is a base fallacy and you will retract it. I mentioned this, along with the missing 115th Olympiad, early in the discussion as can clearly be seen. In fact, as you might find by re-reading the post, there are two missing years though you seem blissfully unaware.
Taphoi wrote:Whereas I agree that Diodorus omits the 321/0BC year boundary, according to Low Chronology, it would have to immediately follow his 322/1BC year boundary with no events in between. As I have said, it would be an empty year. Horrible!
At the risk of putting other Pothosians to sleep, I shall have to revisit the chronological problems involved in Diodorus book 18 (and 19-20) given you demonstrate little grasp of the issues involved, as the above shows.
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Paralus »

Diodorus utilised three chronographic methods: Olympiads, Roman consuls and Attic archon years. For the great part this didn’t present Diodorus with too many insoluble problems - Athenian archons generally being sufficient to date most matters. This all changed once Diodorus came to write books 18-20. Here he found a source (whether direct or via an intermediary) who had recorded his history in exactly the same fashion as Thucydides: campaigning seasons or winter to winter (our Julian year) – something I’ve been at pains to stress on this thread. This was incompatible with Attic archon years recorded from summer to summer.

To reconcile his source with his own chronographic method, Diodorus - for Books 18-20 - eventually attempted to record a campaigning year under the archon who took office in that year. Thus, as an example, events narrated for Theophrastus (313/12) are actually his source's events of the 313 campaigning year. Diodorus was some time coming to this and his struggles resulted in serious temporal confusion and compression of his source. The result is the absolute mess that presents itself to the reader of the first half book 18. Into this mess disappear the 115th Olympiad and two Attic archon years: 321/20 and 320/19. Also, in following this source history framed by campaigning years, Diodorus sometimes failed to record all winter quarters with the result (in book 19) that only five winters in seven years are recorded.

With all that in mind, one should sit back and take a long breath before making statements such as the following:
Taphoi wrote:…the only year boundary is that between 323/2BC and 322/1BC giving the correct Athenian archon for 322/1BC – it immediately precedes the departure of the corpse from Babylon…
The point being made that Diodorus, with this Attic year marker, correctly places the abduction of the cortege "late in the year 322". We have already seen that not only is an Olympiad is missing, but also the years 321/20 and 320/19. If we assume that Diodorus has placed this Attic year marker correctly, it makes for a very interesting year under Cephisodorus (323/22). In this year Diodorus narrates the following (the list is not exhaustive): strife in Babylon; the revolt in Bactria; the revolt in Greece and the Lamian war; the pacification of Cappadocia; the winter siege of Antipater in Lamia and its raising by Leonnatus; the battle of Crannon; the winter campaign of Antipater and Craterus in Aetolia and Antigonus’ flight to same; Perdiccas deciding to attack Egypt before attacking Macedonia.

I could begin with the fact that there is no reason for Perdiccas to be attacking either Egypt or Macedonia in the Attic archon year of 323/22, but there is plainly no need to argue that. It is readily apparent that Antipater can’t have been locked up in Lamia whilst campaigning with Craterus in Aetolia over the winter of this archon year. The events of this year must cover more than 323/22 and Diodorus, clearly, has not inserted the Attic archon year of Philocles (322/21) correctly. Further, we have no Attic archon years following this until we arrive at 319/18. Diodorus has hopelessly confused his Attic chronographic markers and cannot be relied upon in this regard for the early sections of Book 18.
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Taphoi »

Taphoi wrote:
Xenophon wrote:And clearly you are not going to change your mind..........you already refuse to do so in the light of a mountain ( literally ) of 'new' evidence from the cuneiform clay tablets - several 'document collections' in fact from as far apart as Aramaea and Babylon, all of which point in the same direction ! Far and away enough evidence to convince any rational person - which it has. If there are problems with 'low' chronology for the years 323-320, there are even more for 'high'....
I am open to being convinced by new evidence as I have said. What are the other tablets that confirm Low Chronology for 321-320BC? Please cite them or provide links.
My reasons for assuming that lines 23-24 of the Babylonian Chronicle are crucial to the Low Chronology for 321-320BC are statements published in 2007 by the Low Chronology advocates that Xenophon has mentioned:
Pat Wheatley, Early Diadoch Chronology in Alexander’s Empire: Formulation to Decay (2007) wrote:The key text is the so-called Babylonian Chronicle of the Diadochi… This cryptic document has fuelled massive ongoing controversy…
Tom Boiy, Cuneiform Tablets & Aramaic Ostraka Between the Low and High Chronologies for the Early Diadoch Period in Alexander’s Empire: Formulation to Decay (2007) wrote:Manni’s main reason for proposing a low chronology was a passage in the [Babylonian] Chronicle dated to an unknown month of year 4 of King Philip: line 23: “That month the king fought battle with the satrap of Egypt”; line 24: “The royal troops were killed by the sword.”
However, it remains entirely possible that Xenophon has knowledge of an additional “mountain” of cuneiform tablets, which confirm the modern interpretation that these lines refer to the Perdiccan invasion of Egypt or otherwise confirm the Low Chronology for 321-320BC. I await Xenophon’s references to these.

As for the idea that Ptolemy’s invasion of Phoenicia and Coele Syria was a peaceful annexation, there is an additional probable reference to this event in Ptolemy’s Satrap Stele of 311BC:
Ptolemy Soter wrote:…while his Holiness [Alexander IV], being also king in the world of foreigners, was in the interior of Asia, there was a great Viceroy in Egypt, Ptolemy was his name. A person of youthful vigour was he, strong in his two arms, wise in spirit, mighty among the people, of stout courage, of firm foot, resisting the furious, not turning his back, striking his adversaries in the face in the midst of the battle. When he had seized the bow, it was not to shoot (from afar) at the assailant, his fighting was with the sword; in the midst of the battle none could stand against him, because of the might of his arm there was no parrying his hand; there was no return of that which went forth out of his mouth, there was not his like in the world of foreigners. He brought back the images of the gods found in Asia; all the furniture and the books of all the temples of North and South Egypt, he had them restored to their place. He had made his residence the fortress of King Alexander, chosen of the Sun, the son of the Sun: Alexandria it is called, on the shore of the Great Sea of the Ionians, Rakoti was its former name. He had assembled many of the Ionians, and cavalry and ships many in number with their crews, when he went with his people to the land of the Syrians, who were at war with him. He penetrated into their land, his courage was mighty as that of the hawk among little birds. Having captured them all together, he carried their princes, their cavalry, their ships, their works of art to Egypt. After this, when he had invaded the territory of Mermerti [Cyrene], he, laying hold of them at one time, led captive their men, women, horses, in requital for what they had done to Egypt…
Now this is also interesting, because, according to Diodorus, Ptolemy did not go in person to Cyrene. In the initial annexation, it was his general Ophellas who acted on his behalf (Diodorus 18.21.7-9). In the subsequent revolt (circa 314BC) Ptolemy sent Agis with a land army and Epaenetus with a fleet (Diodorus 19.79.1-3).

So it would seem that those who say that the statement that “the king did battle with the Satrap of Egypt” in the Babylonian Chronicle means that the king was there in person must also say that the Satrap Stele proves that Diodorus was wrong to say that Ophellas took Cyrene for Ptolemy and that Agis and Epaenetus retook it, since the Stele asserts that Ptolemy was present in person. Indeed, it is their general opinion that a king (or viceroy) cannot be said (by inscribed sources of this period) to act without being present in person. Is the Satrap Stele to be the exception that proves their rule?

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Paralus »

Taphoi wrote:As for the idea that Ptolemy’s invasion of Phoenicia and Coele Syria was a peaceful annexation, there is an additional probable reference to this event in Ptolemy’s Satrap Stele of 311BC


The stela records Ptolemy celebrating a festival of thanksgiving. It is dated via the seventh regnal year of Alexander IV (311 and summer "first month of inundation"). It is far, far more likely that this celebrates Ptolemy's crushing victory over Antigonid forces in Syria at Gaza in late November / early December 312 and the subsequent campaign throughout Coele-Syria rather than an event near ten years old.
Taphoi wrote:Now this is also interesting, because, according to Diodorus, Ptolemy did not go in person to Cyrene. In the initial annexation, it was his general Ophellas who acted on his behalf (Diodorus 18.21.7-9). In the subsequent revolt (circa 314BC) Ptolemy sent Agis with a land army and Epaenetus with a fleet (Diodorus 19.79.1-3).
What is interesting is that you would compare apples to oranges. The Satrap Stela is in the classic pharaonic tradition, hardly the dry recording of historical information of the BCHP 3. As well, you might wish to update your information on "Mermerti". Much work has been done since Bevan and the location referred to is now considered to be Meroe - likely in lower Nubia.

Keep trying...
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

So it would seem that those who say that the statement that “the king did battle with the Satrap of Egypt” in the Babylonian Chronicle means that the king was there in person must also say that the Satrap Stele proves that Diodorus was wrong to say that Ophellas took Cyrene for Ptolemy and that Agis and Epaenetus retook it, since the Stele asserts that Ptolemy was present in person. Indeed, it is their general opinion that a king cannot be said (by inscribed sources of this period) to act without being present in person. Is the Satrap Stele to be the exception that proves their rule?
Well, Christmas certainly is the season for humbug! Since I doubt anyone would accept that a Royal Army operated with the Royal presence in the cases of Peithon (against the Greek Rebellion in the Upper Satrapies), Antigonos against Eumenes and amazingly, vice-versa; but in each case the generals were deputed Royal powers and given Royal troops as strategoi autokratoi. If you wish to summarise an argument try to understand it.

It astounds me how naïve your positions are, if you cannot see that Egyptian records and Babylonian ones belong to different traditions there really seems little hope. No doubt you will claim Ptolemy was a crack archer?
When he had seized the bow not a shot is from the opponent, a flourish of his sword in the fight no one could stand his ground, of mighty hand, nor was his hand repulsed, nor repented he of what his mouth utters, none is like him in the stranger's world.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/lagides.htm a full translation of the stele. These attributes are stereotypical not intended to be taken literally, they form part of the trditional formulae of Egyptian panegyric.
 His Holiness had gone to Pe-Tep to investigate the littoral, all in their domain, to go into 38 the inner marshes, to see each arm of the Nile, that goes into 39 the great sea, to keep back Asia's fleet from Egypt.
Seems to refer to Antigonos' sea-bourne enterprise of 306 yet the initial line date to year 7 of Alexander Aigos, 311, so this is a composite stele, which is not unusual but can any part of it be thought to be looking back to 320? There is certainly no need to presume so 311 saw a campaign in Coele-Syria and Phoenicia which peaked with the defeat of Demetrios at Gaza and culminated in Ptolemy's withdrawl with much booty. XIX 93 v
 5 Ptolemy, however, on hearing of the arrival of Antigonus, called together his leaders and friends and took counsel with them whether it was better to remain and reach a final decision in Syria or to withdraw to Egypt and carry on the war from there as he had formerly done against Perdiccas.6 Now all advised him not to risk a battle against an army that was many times stronger and had a larger number of elephants as well as against an unconquered general; for, they said, it would be much easier for him to settle the war in Egypt where he had plenty of supplies and could trust to the difficulty of the terrain. 7 Deciding, therefore, to leave Syria, he razed the most noteworthy of the cities that he had captured: Akê in Phoenician Syria, and Ioppê, Samaria, and Gaza in Syria; then he himself, taking the army and what of the booty it was possible to drive or carry, returned into Egypt
.

Why mention events of nine years past, when contemporary events fit better?

Why does Diodoros put the settlement of Kyrene before the Syrian venture and the stele after it, simply Diodoros has compressed events in Kyrene. It is a six hundred mile march, or roughly two months journey, there is then fighting and a settlement; three months for news of victory to reach Ptolemy who then has to sail 300 miles to Cyprus and
4 But Ptolemy, now that the matter of Cyrenê had been disposed of according to his wishes, crossed over with an army from Egypt into Cyprus against those of the kings who refused to obey him. Finding that Pygmalion was negotiating with Antigonus, he put him to death; and he arrested Praxippus, king of Lapithia and ruler of Cerynia, whom he suspected of being ill-disposed toward himself, and also Stasioecus, ruler of Marion, destroying the city and transporting the inhabitants to Paphos. 5 After accomplishing these things, he appointed Nicocreon as general of Cyprus, giving him both the cities and the revenues of the kings who had been driven out; 6 but he himself with his army, sailing toward Upper Syria, as it is called, captured and sacked Poseidium and Potami Caron. Sailing without delay to Cilicia, he took Malus and sold as booty those who were captured there. He also plundered the neighbouring territory and, after sating his army with spoil, sailed back to Cyprus. 7 His playing up to the soldiers in this way was designed to evoke enthusiasm in face of the encounters that were approaching.
Then,
3 Ptolemy, since his undertakings had turned out as he wished, now sailed away to Egypt; but after a little while, spurred on by Seleucus because of his hostility toward Antigonus, he decided to make a campaign into Coelê Syria and take the field against the army of Demetrius. 4 He therefore gathered together his forces from all sides and marched from Alexandria to Pelusium with eighteen thousand foot and four thousand horse. Of his army some were Macedonians and some were mercenaries, but a great number were Egyptians, of whom some carried the missiles and the other baggage but some were armed and serviceable for battle. 5 Marching through the desert from Pelusium, he camped near the enemy at Old Gaza in Syria. Demetrius, who had likewise summoned his soldiers to Old Gaza from their winter quarters on all sides, awaited the approach of his opponents.



Now, it is true that we are talking about an unspecified time in summer to an equally unspecified time in winter but is there really room for a three month delay before Ptolemy sets out for Cyprus and campaigns in Syria and Cilicia?
Last edited by agesilaos on Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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Taphoi
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Taphoi »

Paralus wrote:…you might wish to update your information on "Mermerti". Much work has been done since Bevan and the location referred to is now considered to be Meroe - likely in lower Nubia.
This site http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/lagides.htm has another translation of the Satrap Stele and it comments “Mermerti: Marmarica, the eastern part of the Libyan coast.” Cyrene in other words. What is your reference for Meroe? What is the evidence for Ptolemy invading Meroe in person before 311BC?
agesilaos wrote:…Egyptian records and Babylonian ones belong to different traditions…
In other words you have revised your position such that a contemporaneous Egyptian scribe might attribute actions to the ruler of Egypt when he was not present, but a Babylonian scribe could not (in respect of his ruler). What a convenient rule.
agesilaos wrote:Why mention events of nine years past, when contemporary events fit better?
Because the invasion of Syria happened before the capture of Cyrene in the Stele. I am not aware of a capture of Cyrene between Gaza and 311BC. Also the Stele appears to say that Alexander IV was still in Asia, when the specified invasion of Syria took place.

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

He being as King in the stranger's world, as was His Holiness in Inner Asia, so there was a great Viceroy in Egypt, Ptolemaeus was he called.
This does not place the person of Alexander IV in Inner Asia, it merely says he rules there as he reigns as King in the 'stranger's world' or Europe.
In other words you have revised your position such that a contemporaneous Egyptian scribe might attribute actions to the ruler of Egypt when he was not present, but a Babylonian scribe could not (in respect of his ruler). What a convenient rule.
My position has not changed, it has never been the one you wish to foist on me, everyone can read what I have written so I'd save your spleen. I would be most surprised if Egyptian Temple Scribes used the same conventions as Babylonian Chronographers, this is pretty much common sense, as for the Stele putting the attack on 'Mermerrit' after the attack on Syria, did you not read what is written above? The events are more likely contemporary and an Egyptian would naturally treat the event the Viceroy was involved in first as the most important whereas Diodoros treats the Kyrenaian Revolt first, as it started first tells its course in toto and then moves on to treat the major event of Ptolemy's invasion of Cyprus, Coele-Syria and Cilicia.

Laomedon is a red herring, at the time the Royal army was split between Antipatros and Antigonos who assigned some to Asandros. The Satrapal armies had been ordered disbanded by Alexander so the weakness of Laomedon's position is understandable, he had only a few garrisons to keep internal order. Had he possessed sizable forces Perdikkas would have annexed them to use in his Invasion and such assistance would have cost Laomedon his head at Triparadeisos, if Perdikkas had not crucified him first for maintaining an illegal army (surely one of the charges levelled at Ptolemy and used again by Antigonos against Arrhidaios).
When you think about, it free-choice is the only possible option.
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