Male paramours in antiquity

[Marilyn]

Acquited??? Of WHAT?? It isn't a crime to be gay Jan, least ways not here, not yetMOST people agree that the POINT was that Alexander wouldn't mess with slaves or children, but that has nothing to do with being attracted to people of the same sexAnyway, I'm signing off this thread- maybe Marcus was the smart one

[beausefaless]

Very wise but always remember;Know how to listen, and you will profit even from those who talk badly.
Plutarch

[Nax]

Yeah but that's a 2 way street, innit?

[jan]

Thanks, Linda Ann, for weighing in on this, as I enjoy that. I am always aware that each and every author has a reason for his taking the time to study Alexander, and I do value Arthur Weigall's reputation for being forthright and candid. I like the idea of a scholarly competition between historians... It would be fun to watch John Prevas and Ian Worthington versus Guy Rogers McLean and Robin Lane Fox. Thanks for such a great idea!

[jan]

O.K. Marilyn, I was referring to the accusation that Alexander had been duped by the sinister Bagoas who actually rules the Persian Empire, as that is only the taunt from an angry and possibly guilty victim. However, Curtius was obvious in his bias as he favored Orsine (sp.) as the innocent in that episode.Unfortunately, being gay is a crime today in many parts of the world. Perhaps not where you live, but there are many articles on it, and it is becoming a crime in America as well when it comes to marriages since so many states are adding amendments to their constitutions making it such.These are the times...I suspect that that may be one of the reasons that Weigall made such a point of saying that he did not believe that Alexander was a homosexual. It would have been pure poison as you surely must know that it is in much of the world.

[Marilyn]

Hi Jan,Just because a thing is a crime in many places in the world doesn't make it wrong in the measure of the universe as opposed to the measure of mankind. And you can't assess the past from the laws of today, since today has been heavily impacted by the "moral code" of three prominent monotheistic paternalistic and phallus-centric religious cultures.As to legalities, throughout history there have been a LOT of LEGAl and ACCEPTABLE laws that were cruel, evil, immoral and vicious, as you surely know!!Same-sex attraction is found in a lot of species and everywhere in the world, so to me, its natural and normal in those it appears in, and hurts no one, so its really immaterial to me whether some historians write from their bias against it- it doesn't change the fact that Alexander had, as others have said here, the strongest emotional attachments to his own sex, that most homphobic cultures are actually , as Sikander I think it was (if I'm wrong, "sorry" in advance but I've been reading a LOT of posts)said in a post, homoerotic and that whether we like it or not, Alexander's emotional relationships with other men, which probably included the physical, were both legal and common enough in his day to make it likely that Alexander took part in 'em, too.

[jan]

HI Marilyn,I think maybe we had better start another thread, but laws have never been based upon right or wrong, but just generally the needs of the community which enacts them. However, I do believe that a truth exists the same throughout all time, as nature demonstrates. Truth does not change ever.I am trying to do what I can to enforce the concept of equality in America for that is the nation in which I live. I believe that equal means equal, even regarding minorities.

[marcus]

Sorry, Janet, but I can't resist this one. You said: "I believe that equal means equal, even regarding minorities."*Even* regarding minorities, eh? All the bestMarcus

[Marilyn]

heh heh heh I can go that one better- how about a MAJORITY (women) treated like/perceived as a minority??Social laws that govern consenting adults are almost ALWAYS really about power-base dominator versus powerless subordinated. After all, in South Africa, aparthied kept a VAST majority under the oppressive rule of a minority for a long, long time. And considering that in America the dominant group- whites- especially white males- are a "minority" group, welllllll
so its not the "needs of a society" that determines laws, but the needs of the RULING power, and that's OFTEN a minority, to be sure! And too many people let that ruling power determine their thinking cuz its easier than taking responsibility to find out facts, look at things from all sides and draw your own conclusion from truth/facts versus the social mythology (okay, okay, I am psyched from taking a class in concepts of privilege)

[jan]

Thanks, Marcus, I can even laugh at myself for that too. I really opened mouth and inserted foot a lot in this post. I am going to stay out of the jokes department from now on. But briefly, a joke about two doctors who can't hang a sign on their door in a narrow minded small town: homos and hemrrhoids treated here, and the towns mayor says no, you can't hang those here, so he tried queers and rears, and again, the reply was no, you can't hang that here, so finally he came up with odds and ends! Yeah, you can do that. I learned that from a travel school! Cute, huh?

[jan]

Sad to say that equality is a myth too, isn't it? But it is supposed to mean equality in terms of legal rights. Naturally, equality then meant only the rule of the king was no longer the law of the land. When I was speaking of minorities, I was thinking of education, as joe average is the norm, while higher iq's are usually an extreme minority. We had to always make special classes to accomodate the college preparatory students, as well as classes for slower and more remedial. As for women being a minority, yes, indeed, in many parts of the world yet, women are still considered only second class citizens. In Hawaii, whites are a minority as Asians dominate most of the Hawaiian Islands. In California, it is expected that whites will be a minority soon if things continue on the path they appear to be taking.Isn't most of England white? Most of Europe? And isn't most of American descendants from those same Europeans?

[marcus]

:-)Well, I'd be lying if I said that wasn't quite funny ... but it's probably time we drew a modest curtain around the whole of this thread, before it spirals out of control again.All the bestMarcus

[Nax]

So jan still managed to smarm another jab in and where the heck are the moderators???Yeah, marilyn's point being, "jokes" like this are only funny to the people NOT impacted- the ones who always seem to be able to get a yuk at other peoples expense. Funny how jokes like this are never aimed at the people holding all the cards- this kind of humor is ONLY meant to "keep people in their place" So yeah, can we PLEEZ delete this or cut it or????

[beausefaless]

In antiquity (Macedonia & Greece) women were hardly a second class citizen, in Egypt woman were equal to men, they were able to own property and litigate in any court. Olympias was a brave and intelligent lady and queen a trooper for sure.

Of coarse this can be considered a two way street, one way street, and a four way high speed autobahn expressway. My original joke was a spur of the moment follow up to a previous post. I meant no pun, a few people did not like it and they demanded the joke deleted and so I did honor their request. On the other hand no one is forcing anyone to read anything but they do have a right to whine. Towards the bottom line is, I thought the follow up joke was hilarious other people did not, too bad.

If you or any one missed the joke I have it stored in my drafts and through personal email it can be read.

I respectfully disagree with you and Marcus and I'm *in* favor of no deletion of any message thread in this post. Look, the bottom line is, learn how to forget about it and move on and if you still must make political hay more power to you dude, take care......

[Nax]

The power women had in antiquity has nothing to do with your "joke"." I respectfully disagree with you and Marcus and I'm *in* favor of no deletion of any message thread in this post. Look, the bottom line is, learn how to forget about it and move on and if you still must make political hay more power to you dude,"It's not political hay, dude- it's learning to recognize that you really DON'T have the right to make jokes at the expense of people with less power than you, or less rights or less legal protection. You might have the power to do it and the inclination but its a bully tactic and you know it, So whine all YOU want about being called on it, fact is, the thing shoulda been deleted in your head before you posted it
take care......