What if?

[jan]

In Frank L. Holt's study of the elephant coins, the author makes a point to compare one of the coins about King Porus with the famous mosaic of Alexander and King Darius. Both appear to be identical except for the adversary as Alexander is depicted with his sarissa spear sticking through the body of a bodyguard or defender of each king.

[Taphoi]

Thanks xxx.It might be worth reminding the sceptics of how Diodorus (Cleitarchus) quotes Alexander in the final round of negotiations before Gaugamela:"[Alexander] bade [Darius' envoys] tell Darius that, if he desired the supremacy, he should do battle with him to see which of them would have sole and universal rule. If, alternatively, he despised glory and chose profit and luxury with a life of ease, then let him obey Alexander, but be king over all other rulers, since this privilege was granted him by Alexander's generosity." 17.54.6Plutarch gives Darius' dying words: he said that Alexander would reward Polystratus for his kindness to Darius and the gods would reward Alexander for his kindness to Darius' family. It is also stated that Bessus had Darius slain specifically because he had said he wished to surrender to Alexander. It would seem that Darius certainly didn't expect to be killed by Alexander. Isn't it a little ironic that some people now have a worse opinion of Alexander, than Alexander's greatest contemporary opponent?Best wishes,Andrew

[marcus]

:-)Well, I suppose it depends how far we trust what the sources say, themselves with the benefit of hindsight ... ATBMarcus

[marcus]

Hi Kenny,Nice to see you! I hope you'll stick around ...ATBMarcusPS: I did try to reply to the email you sent me a while ago, but it kept bouncing back saying the address didn't exist. I wasn't purposefully ignoring you!

[kenny]

Andrewits not really a woese opinion to his contemporary critics to think Alexander would wish Darius dead nor to think he may have had a hand in it.Its just further acknowledgemen that indeed Alexander was far more than a military commander as some assume. It outlines the mans awareness and astuteness with political and administration matters and which situations serve him the most.Its even more clever if he had anything to do with his death that he turned it all to his benefit. Seeming very grand to those observers who watched his magnamity towards the dead king. Then the ample excuse to chase bessus to the death in another act of vengeance this time to satisfy his Persian audience as to hunt down the killer of the once great king darius.As Marcus said the sourses cant be taken as solid I doubt any one really knows what came out of Alexanders mouth let alone what darius said before he died.As linda said and even Napoleon once said Alexander made his own luck and the death and the way of Darius served Alexanders purpose more than Darius been Alive.Kenny

[kenny]

Marcus Hi No problem,, I really only popped in and couldnt resist the thread posted and Andrews thoughts on what if. I guess It comes as a shock to people knowing how I love Alexander and how I can admit to things maybe not so nice about Alexander. As I do think he would want darius dead and that he even had something to do with it.I have always maintained Alexander was far more than just a dynamic commander who won battles but a king well adept at administration politics and rule.regards kenny

[Taphoi]

Hi Marcus,The problem with doubting the sources is that the ancient accounts can be traced to several different primary sources in this case, including apparently an eyewitness within Darius' court. Nevertheless they all paint essentially the same picture, which is factually at odds with the idea that Alexander wished to kill Darius.Best wishes,Andrew

[marcus]

Hi Andrew,I believe you about the sources - I don't have the time to go checking myself, anyway.However, I hope you, and others, don't think that for a moment I have suggested that Alexander *wanted* to kill Darius (and I'm talking about after Gaugamela here). My argument is that, if push had come to shove, he might have felt he had no option, and that Bessus and Nabarzanes etc. did him a massive favour, by never putting him in the position where he had to make the decision ... but we could argue that until the cows come home, because he was never put to the test. I think he probably would have had to do it, albeit unwillingly - but see my other comment about the 5-day halt that you pointed out ...ATBMarcus

[amyntoros]

***"If, alternatively, he despised glory and chose profit and luxury with a life of ease, then let him obey Alexander, but be king over all other rulers, since this privilege was granted him by Alexander's generosity." 17.54.6 (Diodorus)***Did anyone, then or since, actually believe that Darius would surrender after a statement that began with 'if. . . he despised glory'? I think that pretty much guaranteed Darius' continuing the fight - one would have to have the absolutely lowest opinion of Darius to believe otherwise - so it's easy to assume that it was Alexander's true wish that the battles continue.***"It is also stated that Bessus had Darius slain specifically because he had said he wished to surrender to Alexander. It would seem that Darius certainly didn't expect to be killed by Alexander."***"How long, I ask, am I going to be an exile in my own kingdom and flee through my own empire from a foreign king, when trying the fortunes of war I can either recover what I have lost or else achieve death with honour? Or perhaps it is preferable to await hopefully the victor's decision, to follow the example of Mazaeus and Mithrenes and govern a single province at another's whim - supposing that now he prefers to indulge his vanity rather than his anger! I pray the gods never grant anyone the power to remove or to place this diadem on my head. I am not going to live to see the loss of this empire: my rule and my life shall end together. (Darius speaking - Curtius 5.8.11-13)***Isn't it a little ironic that some people now have a worse opinion of Alexander, than
Alexander's greatest contemporary opponent?***From my posts in this thread: "always in the forefront of everything. . . superb political acumen. . . brilliant policy. . . absolutely splendid publicity campaign." This is a worse opinion of Alexander? Hmm, wonder what comments there will be when I actually *do* criticize Alexander for something?!! Best regardsAmyntoros

[pamm]

I'm fascinated by this discussion. Thank you all for the interesting information. I had just read in Hammond's 'The Genius of Alexander the Great' that he believed Alexander had wished to take Darius alive but didn't give as much debate to it as you have here.Pam

[GISELE BUNDCHEN]

This is inspired by the previous subject regarding Alexander against a united India. Would a victory for Porus have been more likely if the battle did not occur in monsoon season?I would like to see what others make of the question before I add my opinions, if that is all right.