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Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:51 am
by the_accursed
Hello Amyntoros.

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure you really answered my questions, though. You gave me an answer that has to be interpreted, as it contains neither a straightforward ”yes” nor a straightforward ”no”. It's difficult to reply to such answers, as it seems to me (based on experience) that whatever I then write, the reply will almost inevitably be: ”no, that's not at all what I meant”.

Myself, I agree that "everybody lies". But I also think that this indeed says something about humanity.

Alexander III may not have been a compulsive liar, but to me, he certainly seems to have been a pragmatic one. That is: he lied when he believed that lying would be more beneficial to him than telling the truth. He furthermore had a problem with hearing others tell him unpleasant truths. Rather, he loved when people lied to him, as long as the lies were pleasant. This too I believe says something about him. Character flaws are still character flaws when they are shared by many, and do, in my opinion, say something about those of us who possess them, or have possessed them - including Alexander III.

Here's my gut feeling, Amyntoros: I think that had the question been: ”Did Hitler have it in his character to lie?”, then you would not have ended an otherwise – and as usual – fact based and rational post with a disclaimer saying that your examples should not “...be interpreted as as a bad reflection on Hitler's character”, because, after all, you occasionally lie too...and don't we all lie every now and then?...and ”needs must”...et c.

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:24 pm
by athenas owl
the_accursed wrote:Hello Amyntoros.

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure you really answered my questions, though. You gave me an answer that has to be interpreted, as it contains neither a straightforward ”yes” nor a straightforward ”no”. It's difficult to reply to such answers, as it seems to me (based on experience) that whatever I then write, the reply will almost inevitably be: ”no, that's not at all what I meant”.

Myself, I agree that "everybody lies". But I also think that this indeed says something about humanity.

Alexander III may not have been a compulsive liar, but to me, he certainly seems to have been a pragmatic one. That is: he lied when he believed that lying would be more beneficial to him than telling the truth. He furthermore had a problem with hearing others tell him unpleasant truths. Rather, he loved when people lied to him, as long as the lies were pleasant. This too I believe says something about him. Character flaws are still character flaws when they are shared by many, and do, in my opinion, say something about those of us who possess them, or have possessed them - including Alexander III.

Here's my gut feeling, Amyntoros: I think that had the question been: ”Did Hitler have it in his character to lie?”, then you would not have ended an otherwise – and as usual – fact based and rational post with a disclaimer saying that your examples should not “...be interpreted as as a bad reflection on Hitler's character”, because, after all, you occasionally lie too...and don't we all lie every now and then?...and ”needs must”...et c.

Oh you Godwined the thread... :D

Can you find a leader anywhere in history that didn't lie? Seriously. Not a fictiional or mythic character, though wasn't Odysseus admired for his cunning and deceit. In fact, those traits are what endeared him to Athena.

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:37 pm
by the_accursed
athenas owl wrote:Oh you Godwined the thread... :D

Can you find a leader anywhere in history that didn't lie? Seriously. Not a fictiional or mythic character, though wasn't Odysseus admired for his cunning and deceit. In fact, those traits are what endeared him to Athena.
No. And that's not my point. My point is that the lies of Alexander III do say something about his character, just like they do for any other person in history who have lied. His was not a special case which must be excused.

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:09 pm
by Semiramis
the_accursed wrote: No. And that's not my point. My point is that the lies of Alexander III do say something about his character, just like they do for any other person in history who have lied. His was not a special case which must be excused.
Hi accursed,

There are people who tell the truth in difficult situations, sometimes with substantial consequences to themselves. IMHO, that does reflect on their character. So, I believe the converse is also true.

Saying that, it can't be surprising that someone willing to kill large numbers for power and wealth (or fame and glory if you prefer), was also reported to tell a few untruths for those goals. :)

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:02 pm
by Paralus
Oh dear: how many lies can fit onto the point of a sarisa and Hitler? And in the one thread!

Alexander, reading all the sources, clearly deceived the Indian mercenaries. They believed they had a truce. Which they did until Alexander had them out of the city where they had caused some major grief and would continue to do so if allowed to depart.

He lied; they died.

Plutarch, I'm afraid, knew what he was writing about:
And this act adheres like a stain to his military career; in all other instances he waged war according to usage and like a king.

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:17 pm
by marcus
Paralus wrote:Oh dear: how many lies can fit onto the point of a sarisa and Hitler? And in the one thread!

Alexander, reading all the sources, clearly deceived the Indian mercenaries. They believed they had a truce. Which they did until Alexander had them out of the city where they had caused some major grief and would continue to do so if allowed to depart.

He lied; they died.

Plutarch, I'm afraid, knew what he was writing about:
And this act adheres like a stain to his military career; in all other instances he waged war according to usage and like a king.
I'm not sure I really know what's being discussed here. However, I think we can be pretty sure that the "stain" is not the lie per se, but the massacre of the mercenaries. The lie was almost incidental, enabling Alexander to carry out the massacre with minimal fuss and loss to his own forces.

I'm sure he remembered all too well the fight with the Greek mercenaries at the Granicus, who gave his soldiers a much bloodier nose than the Persian cavalry had done. Therefore, in a fit of military pragmatism, or Realkrieg(?), he decided to dupe the Indians into effectively laying down their arms, allowing his men to kill them with very little effort, and fewer casualties.

We can excuse him or vilify him, but almost certainly he did what he felt needed to be done.

ATB

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:03 am
by Fiona
Paralus wrote:
If all the source material on the matter is read, it is apparent that Arrian has unblushingly airbrushed the entire scenario. He accords it a mere eighty odd words in a discourse of well over 700. The preceding narrative gives the lie to Arrian’s apologia. He has described four days of intense fighting at Massaga which cost him dearly and he, himself, was wounded in the ankle. The results, elsewhere, of such resistance are well documented.
Well, I don't agree that an account, however short, that includes the word 'butchered' amounts to airbrushing. Arrian doesn't furnish us with gory details like Diodorus does, but neither does he make light of the matter. As Arrian's writing is usually decorous and restrained, it doesn't seem surprising that he maintains his style here.
Paralus wrote: Arrian’s apologia climbs greater heights when he decides to blame the mercenaries for their massacre by claiming that they “were unwilling to take up arms against the other Indians”. Now that would seem a most strange attitude for mercenaries to take. Since they had come from some more distant part of India one supposes that they fought enemies in China? I can only assume that, as they wouldn’t fight against “other Indians”, they didn’t earn much of a living. Imagine Greek mercenaries ever doing such a thing. Plutarch, though, makes it plain that they did fight for other cities - Indian cities
No. This is a construct of Arrian's to exculpate his hero.
Very interesting. It honestly hadn't occured to me that anyone, reading "were unwilling to take up arms against the other Indians" or as the translation I have here puts it, " having no desire to fight against other Indians" would see that as anything other than a feeble excuse on the Indians' part for their dishonouring of their agreement with Alexander.
Your logic, if I have understood you, is telling you that, since obviously these mercenaries must have fought Indians, then Arrian's explanation is something he has made up to excuse Alexander. My logic is telling me that since obviously these mercenaries must have fought Indians, their sudden wish not to do so any more was an excuse to get out of the agreement.
We can't both be right - but I contend that my version is just as likely to be the true one, and therefore it can only be fair to say that it may be a construct of Arrian's.
Paralus wrote: The other source material is clear that this was betrayal on Alexander’s part. He had been held up for four days, suffered losses and had been wounded. He did what he did as a salutary lesson and in outright retribution as with Thebes, Tyre and Gaza. It is clear these mercenaries were led to believe they were safe under a truce. Alexander had no intention of honouring such. He surrounded them in surprise and “butchered them” (Arrian) or “Anihilated them” (Plutarch). Interesting is the fact that Plutarch relates this episode in concert with the hanging of the “philosophers”.
As I say, Diodorus describes it well: treachery. The mercenaries call to the gods to bear witness to the perfidy.
I agree, Plutarch and Diodorus are clear on this point. According to them, the Indians thought they were safe under a truce. But neither of them mentions the reason for Alexander's reaction, which Arrian makes clear, that they were the ones who broke the agreement. Treachery indeed, but not on Alexander's part. His reaction was over-the-top, no question, and could be called brutal and savage, but he was feeling betrayed. And there is the reason that his admiration of their bravery changed to disgust at their perfidy.
Fiona

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:15 am
by Fiona
Semiramis wrote:
What is it about Arrian's account regarding this incident that you find more convincing than those of Plutarch or Diodorus? :)
Hi Semiramis,
thank you for your question - I've kind of answered it in the post I just sent in answer to some points made by Paralus, but I'd just like to add that Plutarch says that " on all other occasions he observed the normal usages of war and behaved like a king" - and that's all other occasions, including presumably Thebes and Tyre. So it seems to me that Plutarch has no problem with savagery in war if there is a reason for it, and that here, because he can see no reason, he calls it a blot on Alexander's career.
Diodorus says Alexander "nursed an implacable hostility towards them" without stopping to wonder what the reason for that might be, when days before he had been so impressed by them that he'd offered them a place in his army.
But Arrian gives us the reason, and that's what makes the difference.
Fiona

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:24 am
by Semiramis
Fiona wrote:Very interesting. It honestly hadn't occured to me that anyone, reading "were unwilling to take up arms against the other Indians" or as the translation I have here puts it, " having no desire to fight against other Indians" would see that as anything other than a feeble excuse on the Indians' part for their dishonouring of their agreement with Alexander.
Your logic, if I have understood you, is telling you that, since obviously these mercenaries must have fought Indians, then Arrian's explanation is something he has made up to excuse Alexander. My logic is telling me that since obviously these mercenaries must have fought Indians, their sudden wish not to do so any more was an excuse to get out of the agreement.
We can't both be right - but I contend that my version is just as likely to be the true one, and therefore it can only be fair to say that it may be a construct of Arrian's.
It is difficult to interpret Arrian's words the way you describe above.
Arrian wrote:They therefore came out of the city with their arms, and encamped by themselves upon a hill which was facing the camp of the Macedonians; but they resolved to arise by night and run away to their own abodes, because they were unwilling to take up arms against the other Indians. When Alexander received intelligence of this, he placed the whole of his army round the hill in the night, and intercepting them in the midst of their flight, cut them to pieces.
Arrian states that the mercenaries resolved to "run away". Doesn't that suggest that they did not intend to inform Alexander of their decision to leave? Then why would they need to make any excuses to Alexander? According to Arrian, Alexander only knew of their resolve and apparently genuine motivation for it, due to "intelligence". I am puzzled as to how or when they communicated their false excuse of a "sudden wish" not to fight other Indians any more to Alexander?
Fiona wrote:I agree, Plutarch and Diodorus are clear on this point. According to them, the Indians thought they were safe under a truce. But neither of them mentions the reason for Alexander's reaction, which Arrian makes clear, that they were the ones who broke the agreement. Treachery indeed, but not on Alexander's part. His reaction was over-the-top, no question, and could be called brutal and savage, but he was feeling betrayed. And there is the reason that his admiration of their bravery changed to disgust at their perfidy.
Plutarch wrote:But the best soldiers of the Indians were mercenaries, who entered into the pay of several of the cities, and undertook to defend them, and did it so bravely, that they put Alexander to a great deal of trouble, till at last, after a capitulation, upon the surrender of the place, he fell upon them as they were marching away, and put them all to the sword. This one breach of his word remains as a blemish upon his achievements in war, which he otherwise had performed throughout with that justice and honour that became a king.
Plutarch mentions very clearly what he believes to be the reason for Alexander's actions. That they were very good fighters. Arrian's long account of the 4 days of the Massagete campaign agrees with him on this point.
Diodorus wrote: The mercenaries straightway under the terms of the truce left the city and encamped without interference at a distance of eighty furlongs, without an inkling of what would happen.2 2 Alexander, nevertheless, nursed an implacable hostility toward them; he held his forces in readiness, followed them, and falling upon them suddenly wrought a great slaughter. At first they kept shouting that this attack was in contravention of the treaty and they called to witness the gods against whom he had transgressed. Alexander shouted back that he had granted them the right to leave the city but not that of being friends of the Macedonians forever.
Alexander's words here give no inkling of any feeling of betrayal on his part. If there was a contravention of any treaty involved in the parts of the Indians, would Alexander not have pointed out that it was the mercenaries who had broken their word first? It seems pretty clear that Alexander is the treacherous one in Diodorus' version, so we would need to rule out treachery as Alexander's motivation in this version as well.
Fiona wrote:Hi Semiramis,
thank you for your question - I've kind of answered it in the post I just sent in answer to some points made by Paralus, but I'd just like to add that Plutarch says that " on all other occasions he observed the normal usages of war and behaved like a king" - and that's all other occasions, including presumably Thebes and Tyre. So it seems to me that Plutarch has no problem with savagery in war if there is a reason for it, and that here, because he can see no reason, he calls it a blot on Alexander's career.
Diodorus says Alexander "nursed an implacable hostility towards them" without stopping to wonder what the reason for that might be, when days before he had been so impressed by them that he'd offered them a place in his army.
But Arrian gives us the reason, and that's what makes the difference.
Fiona
From my readings, it seems Plutarch is disturbed at the idea that Alexander agreed to a truce only so his army can butcher the unsuspecting warriors without a fair fight. The writer had unashamedly glorified mass killings, crucifixions, enslavement and terrorizing of populations from Thebes to Tyre to Gaza to Alor. But even he could not help but view this massacre as outside the rules of war. It appears that neither Plutarch nor Diodorus believed that Alexander had offered the mercenaries a place in his army, so the matter of admiration is not an issue in their accounts.

However, we can safely say of Plutarch that his disillusion never reached the level of that of another writer from a different age of empire. :)
Joseph Conrad wrote:They were conquerors, and for that you want only brute force — nothing to boast of, when you have it, since your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others. They grabbed what they could get for the sake of what was to be got. It was just robbery with violence, aggravated murder on a great scale, and men going at it blind — as is very proper for those who tackle a darkness. The conquest of the earth, which mostly means the taking it away from those who have a different complexion or slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look into it too much. What redeems it is the idea only. An idea at the back of it; not a sentimental pretence but an idea; and an unselfish belief in the idea — something you can set up, and bow down before, and offer a sacrifice to. . . .

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:25 am
by Paralus
Fiona wrote:Well, I don't agree that an account, however short, that includes the word 'butchered' amounts to airbrushing. Arrian doesn't furnish us with gory details like Diodorus does, but neither does he make light of the matter. As Arrian's writing is usually decorous and restrained, it doesn't seem surprising that he maintains his style here.
Not trying to change your mind, but I would say that Arrian's account shows that airbrushing is indeed to the fore here. He alone, using Ptolemy or Aristobulus, includes an excuse for the butchery and gives the entire episode little more than a “mention in despatches”.

Again, this episode must be read in conjunction with the four days of heavy, bloody fighting resulting in Alexander being wounded. The results of same elsewhere are well and truly documented (Sangala and the seven cities including Cyropolis to name a couple). These Indians had not heard of the Greeks at the Granicus.
Fiona wrote:As Arrian's writing is usually decorous and restrained, it doesn't seem surprising that he maintains his style here.
Just who are we trying to convince? Arrian’s style here is more like a judicious Justin: abbreviating to a purpose. This is the same Arrian who, though galled at Alexander’s orientalising and barbarian alcohol abuse during his narrative, then goes on to apologise it away in the fashion of Plutarch in his somewhat gushing eulogy:
Aristobulus also asserts that Alexander used to have long drinking parties, not for the purpose of enjoying the wine, as he was not a great wine-drinker, but in order to exhibit his sociality and friendly feeling to his Companions.
Which brings us to Plutarch. Evidently Plutarch and Arrian shared that source: Aristobulus. They will also have shared Ptolemy. Plutarch also had at his disposal much other source material and, so, is often regarded as a tradition unto himself. In all that material – including Aristobulus, who, on the basis of the alcohol excuse, might have provided Arrian’s “double dealing” mercenaries – Plutarch could find no convincing excuse for his hero’s butchery of the mercenaries. None that he found credible enough to record in any case. Ditto Diodorus.

You can rest assured that were it there he will have included it as he explains away Alexander’s drinking as simply spending “time over each cup [….]for conversation's sake”. Even if he then slept the entire following day.
Fiona wrote: But neither of them mentions the reason for Alexander's reaction, which Arrian makes clear, that they were the ones who broke the agreement. Treachery indeed, but not on Alexander's part.
Careful padawan: your feelings betray you.

In the end you will see it as you wish. Me? The balance of the evidence – sources as well as prior “form” and what was to follow – indicates that Diodorus and Plutarch are the more reliable here. Arrian is excusatory.

And, before leaving off, one shouldn’t forget the opening line of the second paragraph of Arrian’s eulogy:
That Alexander should have committed errors in conduct from impetuosity or from wrath […]I do not think remarkable if we fairly consider both his youth and his uninterrupted career of good fortune…
Certainly not.

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:28 am
by the_accursed
Semiramis wrote:Hi accursed,

There are people who tell the truth in difficult situations, sometimes with substantial consequences to themselves. IMHO, that does reflect on their character. So, I believe the converse is also true.

Saying that, it can't be surprising that someone willing to kill large numbers for power and wealth (or fame and glory if you prefer), was also reported to tell a few untruths for those goals. :)
No, not at all. I am, apparently, very unclear. Though, considering the propaganda, I wouldn't call the lies few.

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:57 pm
by Fiona
Paralus wrote:
Careful padawan: your feelings betray you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Dang, must practise more with that light saber...
Paralus wrote:
In the end you will see it as you wish. Me? The balance of the evidence – sources as well as prior “form” and what was to follow – indicates that Diodorus and Plutarch are the more reliable here. Arrian is excusatory.
Fair enough - I wouldn't mind being stuck in a lift with Arrian, though. I think we'd have a lot to talk about. Who wouldn't you mind being stuck in a lift with, Obi-wan?
Paralus wrote: And, before leaving off, one shouldn’t forget the opening line of the second paragraph of Arrian’s eulogy:
That Alexander should have committed errors in conduct from impetuosity or from wrath […]I do not think remarkable if we fairly consider both his youth and his uninterrupted career of good fortune…
Certainly not.
Hear, hear.
Cheers,
Fiona

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:29 pm
by marcus
the_accursed wrote:I am, apparently, very unclear.
I don't know if you're referring to my comment from earlier:
marcus wrote:I'm not sure I really know what's being discussed here.
If you are - please be assured it wasn't that anything you said was unclear; but by the time various people had made their comments I wasn't sure if we were talking about the massacre of the Indian mercenaries, or the fact that Alexander lied to the mercenaries. At that time, in your most recent post you were most definitely talking about Alexander's lies ... but then the discussion seemed to have moved on somewhat.

ATB

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:41 am
by amyntoros
the_accursed wrote:Hello Amyntoros.
Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure you really answered my questions, though. You gave me an answer that has to be interpreted, as it contains neither a straightforward ”yes” nor a straightforward ”no”. It's difficult to reply to such answers, as it seems to me (based on experience) that whatever I then write, the reply will almost inevitably be: ”no, that's not at all what I meant”.
Hello, the_accursed. I didn't answer with a straightforward "yes" or "no" because I can't. My attitude to lying (and many other issues) is not so black or white that I can respond in the manner in which you wish. Sorry.
Alexander III may not have been a compulsive liar, but to me, he certainly seems to have been a pragmatic one. That is: he lied when he believed that lying would be more beneficial to him than telling the truth.
I suspect that is the primary reason why most everyone lies - because if their lies are believed then it is to their benefit.
Here's my gut feeling, Amyntoros: I think that had the question been: ”Did Hitler have it in his character to lie?”, then you would not have ended an otherwise – and as usual – fact based and rational post with a disclaimer saying that your examples should not “...be interpreted as as a bad reflection on Hitler's character”, because, after all, you occasionally lie too...and don't we all lie every now and then?...and ”needs must”...et c.
The comparison itself is somewhat provocative and if you don't mind I'd rather not discuss Hitler. We've already pretty much agreed that everybody lies in some form or another and I think your point is that I should judge Alexander more harshly for his lies and propaganda. Although there are some things he did which disturb me, I'm afraid that I can't share your concern in this instance. :|

Best regards,

Re: Alexander's speed

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:50 am
by amyntoros
Fiona wrote:
Paralus wrote:
Careful padawan: your feelings betray you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Dang, must practise more with that light saber...
Be wary of this Sith Lord, Fiona-Wan! Show our younglings the dark side of Alexander, he will.

:lol: