Alexander's remains

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:
amyntoros wrote:Oh, hold a minute there, Andrew. Why you have brought Arrian into this argument is beyond me. Have I said anywhere in this debate, relevant to this discussion, that I believe in Arrian's infallibility? Have I actually said anywhere on Pothos that I believe Arrian is infallible? I think not. Perhaps you really should consider retiring from the mind-reading business?
This is interesting, but it would be more convincing, if you cited a few of Arrian's errors - just for the record.

Thanks in anticipation.

Andrew
But why? And more to the point, why here, in this thread? I didn't bring up Arrian, infallible or not. As it obviously interests you then why not start a new thread on the question of Arrian's infallibility? Presumably you already know of some parts of his book which you consider inaccurate (although apparently everything in his Events after Alexander as summarized by Photius is infallible.) Why not post some quotes and save me going through the Anabasis on a quest for you. I'm sure others will be happy to contribute if I don't have the time.

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by marcus »

Taphoi wrote:
amyntoros wrote:Oh, hold a minute there, Andrew. Why you have brought Arrian into this argument is beyond me. Have I said anywhere in this debate, relevant to this discussion, that I believe in Arrian's infallibility? Have I actually said anywhere on Pothos that I believe Arrian is infallible? I think not. Perhaps you really should consider retiring from the mind-reading business?
This is interesting, but it would be more convincing, if you cited a few of Arrian's errors - just for the record.

Thanks in anticipation.

Andrew
I wasn't going to stick my oar in here, but this is one of the strangest posts I've read in a long time.

Amyntoros never brought Arrian into the discussion. When challenged on something she never said in relation to this discussion, Amyntoros states that she has never professed a belief in Arrian's infallibility, and now you want her to cite his 'errors' in order to prove that she doesn't think him infallible. What, might I ask, has this to do with the price of fish? Or is it, indeed, a none-too-subtle diversionary tactic?

Bizarre.
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

And Arrhidaeus, who guarded the body of Alexander, led it, against the orders of Perdiccas, from Babylon via Damascus to bring it before Ptolemy, son of Lagus, in Egypt. Despite the opposition of Polemon, an associate of Perdiccas, Arrhidaeus managed to achieve his design…
Arrhidaeus, who kept the body of Alexander with him, contrary to the wish of Perdiccas, took it from Babylon by way of Damascus to Ptolemy the son of Lagus in Egypt; and though often hindered on his journey by Polemon, a friend of Perdiccas, nevertheless succeeded in carrying out his intention....
I find it quite strange that Photios, condensing ten books quotes this paragraph word for word; it would seem more likely that the palimpsest is a fuller abridgement and not the original and even if it were
The partisans of Perdiccas, Attalus and Polemon, sent out by him to prevent the departure, returned without succeeding and told him that Arrhidaeus had deliberately given the body of Alexander to Ptolemy and was carrying it to Egypt. Then, even more, he wanted to march to Egypt in order to take away the rule from Ptolemy and put a new man in his place (one of his friends) and retrieve the body of Alexander. With this intention he arrived in Cilicia with the army.
The motivational detail may originate with Arrian rather than his source, just as Diodoros frequently intrudes his own motivations and moral judgements. But then it’s Arrian that flawed historian who cannot stand up to Lucian; AJP Taylor or Michael Palin? Toughie.

I can see English is not your first language but if you can show me where I wrote an ‘essay denying’ the existence of the palimpsest I might be able to put you straight. Were I of a Freudian bent I; lay odds you were a constipated baby
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

Marcus wrote:I wasn't going to stick my oar in here, but this is one of the strangest posts I've read in a long time.
Did you miss this one?
It may be apposite at this point to interject a short discussion of the history of Sparta in the mid 4th century BC as background for the discussion of Alexander the Great.

Plutarch in his Life of Agesilaos wrote:When Agesilaos came to Ephesus, he found the power and interest of Lysander, and the honours paid to him, insufferably great; all applications were made to him, crowds of suitors attended at his door, and followed upon his steps, as if nothing but the mere name of commander belonged, to satisfy the usage, to Agesilaos, the whole power of it being devolved upon Lysander. None of all the commanders that had been sent into Asia was either so powerful or so formidable as he; no one had rewarded his friends better, or had been more severe against his enemies; which things having been lately done, made the greater impression on men’s minds, especially when they compared the simple and popular behaviour of Agesilaos with the harsh and violent and brief-spoken demeanour which Lysander still retained. Universal preference was yielded to this, and little regard shown to Agesilaos. This first occasioned offence to the other Spartan captains, who resented that they should rather seem the attendants of Lysander, than the councillors of Agesilaos. And at length Agesilaos himself, though not perhaps an envious man in his nature, nor apt to be troubled at the honours redounding upon other men, yet eager for honour and jealous of his glory, began to apprehend that Lysander’s greatness would carry away from him the reputation of whatever great action should happen. He therefore went this way to work. He first opposed him in all his counsels; whatever Lysander specially advised was rejected, and other proposals followed. Then whoever made any address to him, if he found him attached to Lysander, certainly lost his suit. So also in judicial cases, any one whom he spoke strongly against was sure to come off with success, and any man whom he was particularly solicitous to procure some benefit for might think it well if he got away without an actual loss.

These things being clearly not done by chance, but constantly and of a set purpose, Lysander was soon sensible of them, and hesitated not to tell his friends, that they suffered for his sake, bidding them apply themselves to the king, and such as were more powerful with him than he was. Such sayings of his seeming to be designed purposely to excite ill-feeling, Agesilaos went on to offer himself a more open affront, appointing him his meat-carver, and would in public companies, scornfully say, ‘Let them go now and pay their court to my carver.’ Lysander, no longer able to brook these indignities, complained at last to Agesilaos himself, telling him that he knew very well how to humble his friends. Agesilaos answered, ‘I know certainly how to humble those who pretend to more power than myself.’ ‘That,’ replied Lysander, ‘is perhaps rather said by you, than done by me: I desire only that you will assign me some office and place in which I may serve you without incurring your displeasure.’

Upon this Agesilaos sent him to the Hellespont, whence he procured Spithridates, a Persian of the province of Pharnabazus, to come to the assistance of the Greeks with two hundred horse and a great supply of money. Yet his anger did not so come down, but he thenceforward pursued the design of wresting the kingdom out of the hands of the two families which then enjoyed it, and making it wholly elective; and it is thought that he would on account of his quarrel have excited a great commotion in Sparta, if he had not died in the Boeotian war. Thus ambitious spirits in a commonwealth, when they transgress their bounds, are apt to do more harm than good. For though Lysander's pride and assumption was most ill-timed and insufferable in its display, yet Agesilaos surely could have found some other way of setting him right, less offensive to a man of his reputation and ambitious temper. Indeed they were both blinded with the same passion, so as one not to recognize the authority of his superior, the other not to bear with the imperfections of his friend.



I suppose there must have been some Spartans who believed that Agesilaos was sincere in his attacks upon Lysander, although in fact his only motivation was a determination to show Lysander who was king. This pigheadedness and self-importance is what Agesilaos is famous for in history. It was exactly these qualities that led him subsequently to embroil Sparta in the fight with the Thebans that entailed their annihilation at Leuctra and the permanent relegation of Sparta to second-class status among the nations of Greece. The irony is that Agesilaos must have had even more contempt for those Spartans who thought him sincere in his attacks upon Lysander than he had for Lysander himself. And yet they followed him dotingly from disaster to disaster, paving the way for the rise of Macedon. :D

Hoping that nobody will mind this short diversion into the background behind our central topic.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

Ironic, I was going to ask people to stop posting whole posts as quotes, doh! :oops:
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by marcus »

agesilaos wrote:Ironic, I was going to ask people to stop posting whole posts as quotes, doh! :oops:
Naughty, naughty Agesilaos! :roll:

Nope, I still think the other is stranger ...
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Paralus »

Taphoi wrote: Unfortunately, I don't have time to write essays in response to your rhetoric. People will have to spot the non sequiturs themselves.
That is the most embarrassing and pathetic attempt to avoid an answer I've read in quite some time.
Taphoi wrote:With all due respect, what would have saved time would have been if Paralus had found the palimpsest fragment before writing an essay denying its existence.
And that, without putting too blunt a point on it, is fabrication. You have not bothered at all to address the points in the post and I would please like you to demonstrate where I've denied the existence of the palimpsest.
Taphoi wrote:Suffice to say, you have overlooked the fragments of Arrian's Events after Alexander, which do say that the seizure of the corpse steeled Perdiccas in his decision to attack Ptolemy.
I'll begin with the last part of that claim first.

It is never a good look to alter one's position whilst giving the impression the new is one's original. The original position:
Taphoi wrote:... Ptolemy's seizure of the corpse was influential in deciding Perdiccas to attack Ptolemy rather than defend Ionia against Antipater.
Current position:
Taphoi wrote:.... the seizure of the corpse steeled Perdiccas in his decision to attack Ptolemy.
English may not be the first language of some who visit Pothos so I will explain the subtle change. The first claim is that the seizure of the corpse influenced Perdiccas in making a decision to attack Egypt first rather than Macedonia. Thus the seizure was an influence in a decision Perdiccas was to make, to whit, whether to attack Egypt or to March on Macedonia.

To the second position. I have clearly demonstrated that this decision was made before the seizure of the corpse (please see "rhetoric" above in earlier post). Your wording - steeled Perdiccas in his decision, not steeled him in deciding - describes a decision already taken that is further hardened by the seizure. This is, in fact, exactly what ' the palimpsest of Arrian states:
He was even more determined to make an attack on Egypt, in order to remove Ptolemaeus from power
The language - like your own - is describing the confirmation of a decision already taken. That decision - as Diodorus baldy states - was taken during the winter prior to the seizure of the corpse. As a matter of form, you need to acknowledge when you change your position rather than misrepresent it as your original.

As to the claim that I've overlooked material in Events after Alexander, the above should demonstrate that this is clearly an error on your part. It is clear in Diodorus (and Events after Alexander) that Perdiccas, over the autumn and winter of 321/20, was encamped somewhere in Psidia. It is here, adjacent to Phrygia, that he begins his marital intrigues as well as moving against Antigonus who escapes to Antipater. It is here, after Ptolemy's annexation of Cyrene (and his murder of Perdiccas' hyparch Cleomenes), that the synedrion in which the decision to attack Egypt first was taken. In the Spring Perdiccas would march south and Eumenes would march north (with a side trip to Sardis). Thus Arrian, in the palimpsest to which you refer elsewhere, states that in the spring of 320 Perdiccas, the Kings and the royal army moved from Psisdia into Cilicia. At the same time Arrhidaeus defies Perdiccas and takes the corpse to Egypt.
When he arrived with his army in Cilicia with this intention, because he knew that Philotas, the satrap of the country, was a friend of Craterus, he deprived Philotas of his command and set up Philoxenus, an undistinguished Macedonian
The "intention" is to remove Ptolemy. The time is spring 320 and Arrian seems to have given a list of reasons for the invasion of Egypt ("...the desertion of Arrhidaeus to Ptolemaeus, and the taking of the body of Alexander to Egypt...") - a list that is clearly not complete in what survives - before returning to the narrative of the actual campaign which begins with Perdiccas re-organising Cilicia. Photius, in his severely contracted summary, only picks up this campaign when Perdiccas leaves Damascus - something that should give pause especially when dealing with matters such as Photius' dot point summary of the Babylon Settlement.

I would suggest a reading of the source material outside the confines dictated by a preconceived hypothesis.
Last edited by Paralus on Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by chris_taylor »

Taphoi wrote:
amyntoros wrote:Oh, hold a minute there, Andrew. Why you have brought Arrian into this argument is beyond me. Have I said anywhere in this debate, relevant to this discussion, that I believe in Arrian's infallibility? Have I actually said anywhere on Pothos that I believe Arrian is infallible? I think not. Perhaps you really should consider retiring from the mind-reading business?
This is interesting, but it would be more convincing, if you cited a few of Arrian's errors - just for the record.

Thanks in anticipation.

Andrew
Andrew, I assume something in this post slipped through the proof reader, or maybe we've got Gremlins on the server jumbling things up. Please edit it to what you actually meant to say.

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by amyntoros »

agesilaos wrote:
And Arrhidaeus, who guarded the body of Alexander, led it, against the orders of Perdiccas, from Babylon via Damascus to bring it before Ptolemy, son of Lagus, in Egypt. Despite the opposition of Polemon, an associate of Perdiccas, Arrhidaeus managed to achieve his design…
Arrhidaeus, who kept the body of Alexander with him, contrary to the wish of Perdiccas, took it from Babylon by way of Damascus to Ptolemy the son of Lagus in Egypt; and though often hindered on his journey by Polemon, a friend of Perdiccas, nevertheless succeeded in carrying out his intention....
I find it quite strange that Photios, condensing ten books quotes this paragraph word for word; it would seem more likely that the palimpsest is a fuller abridgement and not the original and even if it were
It would be strange, except that the above paragraph does not feature in the palimpsest! It appears it has simply been repeated from some edition of the Bibliotheca of Photius.
The partisans of Perdiccas, Attalus and Polemon, sent out by him to prevent the departure, returned without succeeding and told him that Arrhidaeus had deliberately given the body of Alexander to Ptolemy and was carrying it to Egypt. Then, even more, he wanted to march to Egypt in order to take away the rule from Ptolemy and put a new man in his place (one of his friends) and retrieve the body of Alexander. With this intention he arrived in Cilicia with the army.
Again, the above does not correspond with the palimpsest - someone has filled in the lacunas. I found a translation of the palimpsest on the attalus website and the quote is where the fragment begins.
[COD.RESCR.VATIC.] This fragment was found in a palimpsest, and like many palimpsests the underlying text is difficult to read and full of gaps.

... the desertion of Arrhidaeus to Ptolemaeus, and the taking of the body of Alexander to Egypt ... the associates of Attalus and Polemon ... of the retreat ... returned to Perdiccas. He was even more determined to make an attack on Egypt, in order to remove Ptolemaeus from power, to set up one of his friends as governor of Egypt, and to recover the body of Alexander. When he arrived with his army in Cilicia with this intention, ... ... ...
I'm not sure that this changes the direction of the debate though. Just thought I'd add this for clarity. :)

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Paralus »

amyntoros wrote:Again, the above does not correspond with the palimpsest - someone has filled in the lacunas.
"Guessed in" might be a better description. I've not seen the palimpsest (only the same conservative translation) and can only imagine its state but, and it is a big but, it is dangerous to construct history from square brackets as Ernst Badian once so sagely observed.
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by agesilaos »

Doh! Attalus, excellent resource; it does suggest that Ptolemy may have hi-jacked the cortege in order to thwart Perdikkas' plans, in fact the prime mover may even have been Arrhidaios.

Paralus, don't be too annoyed that Taphoi accuses you of denying the existence of the palimpsest before he edited his post the charge was levelled at me! Lysander? More like Richard Nixon :lol:
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Paralus »

agesilaos wrote:Paralus, don't be too annoyed that Taphoi accuses you of denying the existence of the palimpsest before he edited his post the charge was levelled at me! Lysander? More like Richard Nixon :lol:
I have to say that is as I read it originally - directed at you. It is why I edited my post to include my response to it. That Taphoi would do so does not, in any way, surprise me. In any case, his "argument" is both lame and demonstrates more than poor method. I suspect Taphoi will employ his usual modus operandi now and exit the thread. It is becoming, somewhat, embarrassing.
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Taphoi »

The text I gave is Walter J Goralski's translation of the palimpsest text taken from the Teubner Arrian edited by A G Roos (below). It is the authoritative version (e.g. Goralski states that he considers it superior to other versions). The inferred text in square brackets is not very major overall in respect of the sense of the passage and takes account of the spacings for the lost letters. There is no reasonable doubt that this fragment associates Perdiccas' invasion of Egypt with the hijack of the corpse by Ptolemy.

Best wishes,

Andrew
Roos text of Vatican palimpsest
Roos text of Vatican palimpsest
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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by amyntoros »

Taphoi wrote:The text I gave is Walter J Goralski's translation of the palimpsest text taken from the Teubner Arrian edited by A G Roos (below). It is the authoritative version (e.g. Goralski states that he considers it superior to other versions). The inferred text in square brackets is not very major overall in respect of the sense of the passage and takes account of the spacings for the lost letters. There is no reasonable doubt that this fragment associates Perdiccas' invasion of Egypt with the hijack of the corpse by Ptolemy.
Goralski considers his own translation to be superior to other versions? Isn't that the case with every translator? Who would write a version that they thought was inferior?

I agree that there is no reasonable doubt that this fragment associates the invasion with the hijack of the corpse, but it does not even imply that it is the sole reason. Using Goralski's translation we have :-
Then, even more, he wanted to march to Egypt in order to take away the rule from Ptolemy and put a new man in his place (one of his friends) and retrieve the body of Alexander.
There's the "even more" which means a decision to invade had previously been made or discussed to take Egypt away from Ptolemy and put Perdiccas' own man in his place, then there's the retrieval of Alexander's body. I feel really strange here, paraphrasing a quote in order to explain it, when it shouldn't need any explanation. (Plus I'm also unintentionally paraphrasing a response from Paralus.) And of course Perdiccas would have wanted the body back - he had spent two years building the most expensive and outrageous funerary cart ever seen in order to show how much HE honored Alexander, and then this cart and body was stolen and Ptolemy got to show it off as if he was the man behind it. Which, IMO, takes us right back to the argument that there was great political value in being responsible for the treatment and placement of Alexander's corpse.

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Re: Alexander's remains

Post by Taphoi »

amyntoros wrote: Goralski considers his own translation to be superior to other versions? Isn't that the case with every translator? Who would write a version that they thought was inferior?

I agree that there is no reasonable doubt that this fragment associates the invasion with the hijack of the corpse, but it does not even imply that it is the sole reason. Using Goralski's translation we have :-
Then, even more, he wanted to march to Egypt in order to take away the rule from Ptolemy and put a new man in his place (one of his friends) and retrieve the body of Alexander.
There's the "even more" which means a decision to invade had previously been made or discussed to take Egypt away from Ptolemy and put Perdiccas' own man in his place, then there's the retrieval of Alexander's body. I feel really strange here, paraphrasing a quote in order to explain it, when it shouldn't need any explanation. (Plus I'm also unintentionally paraphrasing a response from Paralus.) And of course Perdiccas would have wanted the body back - he had spent two years building the most expensive and outrageous funerary cart ever seen in order to show how much HE honored Alexander, and then this cart and body was stolen and Ptolemy got to show it off as if he was the man behind it. Which, IMO, takes us right back to the argument that there was great political value in being responsible for the treatment and placement of Alexander's corpse.
Goralski considers that the Roos version of the Greek is superior to others (the Roos text of Arrian is generally considered the best). Goralski says nothing about the quality of his own translation.

I never said the hijacking was Perdiccas' sole reason. But it was clearly a major reason and probably decisive, since the fragment also makes clear that Perdiccas immediately started the army on the journey to Egypt at precisely the point in time when the loss of the body was confirmed to him.

The obvious reason why Perdiccas changed his mind about allowing the corpse to be sent to Egypt would be that Olympias demanded the return of her son's body. Perdiccas needed her support. She was a potential ally against Antipater. In this sense there was great political value in the corpse, but Ptolemy ignored the offence to Olympias in favour of loyalty to Alexander's wishes. Furthermore, the insult to the regent's authority represented by the hijacking had to be dealt with immediately and decisively. Otherwise everybody else would have started to defy him too.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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