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This will be a long post with mainly quotes from the ancient historians. After reading Plutarch, Diodurus, Arrian, Justin, and Curtius Rufus, I see that they really did not consider Alexander a Helen. They seem to state clearly the Macedonians had a different language, calender, dress, socials customs, and other major differences: (I guess my question is why are most historians adament that Alexander was a Helen when historical evidence is not so blunt?)Calendar
"Alexander was born on the sixth day of the month Hecatombaeon, which the Macedonians call Lous, the same day on which the temple of Artemis at Ephesus was burned down." [p.254] [Macedonians had a their own distinct calendar] Plutarch Ancient Greek Historian GÇ¥The Life of AlexanderGÇ¥Dress
"As it happened, Alexander had been sent from Macedonia a present of Macedonian clothes and a large quantity of purple material." [p.97] [Macedonian clothes, and purple material. (Macedonian customs 2) Macedonians dressed differently than the Greeks. One very peculiar feature being the kautsia, the well known Macedonian hat.] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John YardleyLanguage
Alexander speaks: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them." Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you." Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language." [p.138] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John Yardley. [This is again Alexander himself clearly separates the Macedonian as an independent language and the Macedonian way of life, from the Greek language and the Greek way of life which Philotas had referred to be the diplomatic language in the Macedonian court]GÇ£But one of his body guards, Aristophanes, conveyed it away before he could lay hands on it, and the rest surrounded him and begged him to desist, whereupon he sprang to his feet and called out in Macedonian speech (Gk GÇ£MakedonistiGÇ¥ the words GÇ£dialekto

GÇ£But one of his body guards, Aristophanes, conveyed it away before he could lay hands on it, and the rest surrounded him and begged him to desist, whereupon he sprang to his feet and called out in Macedonian speech (Gk GÇ£MakedonistiGÇ¥ the words GÇ£dialektosGÇ¥ and GÇ£glossaGÇ¥ are not used) a summons to his corps of guards (as this was a sign of Great DisturbanceGǪGÇ¥ Plutarch, quoting Alexander in his fight before CleitusGÇÖ was run through. Plutarch LI verse 4Customs
[Alexander attempts to appropriate divine honours to himself] "He wished to be believed, not just called, the son of Jupiter, as if it were possible for him to have as much control over menGÇÖs minds as their tongues, and to give orders for the Macedonians to follow the Persian customs in doing homage to him by prostrating themselves on the ground. To feed this desire of his there was no lack of pernicious flattery - over the course of royalty, whose power is often subverted by adulation than by an enemy. Nor were the Macedonians to blame for this, for none of them could bear the slightest deviation from tradition; rather it was the Greeks, whose corrupt ways had also debased the profession of the liberal arts." [p.187-8] [Macedonian traditions, this passage above, without any ambiguity, strongly implies that the ancient Macedonians were distinct ethnic group of people markedly differed from the Greeks.] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John Yardley"There is a report that, after the king had completed the Macedonian custom of marking out the circular boundary for the future city-walls with barley-meal, flocks of birds flew down and fed on the barley. Many regarded this as unfavorable omen, but the verdict of the seers was that the city would have a large immigrant population and would provide the means of livelihood to many countries." [p.69] [The Macedonians had their own distinct customs] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John Yardley"In capital cases it was a long-established Macedonian practice for the king to conduct the trial while the army (or the commons in peace-time) acted as jury, and the position of the king counted for nothing unless his influence had been substantial prior to the trial." [p.135] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John Yardley

"The general feeling was that Philotas should be stoned to death according to Macedonian customs, but Hephaestion, Craterus, and Coenus declared that torture should be employed to force the truth out of him, and those who had advocated other punishment went over to their view." [p.142] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John Yardley"...but the kingGÇÖs conscience would not permit him to leave his men unburied, for by Macedonian convention there is hardly any duty in military life as binding as burial of oneGÇÖs dead." [p.100] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John Yardley"What they feared was the Macedonian law which provided the death penalty also for relatives of people who had plotted against the king." [p.143] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John YardleyOther
Alexander was only twenty years old when he inherited his kingdom, which at the moment was beset by formidable jealousies and feuds, and external dangers on every side. The neighboring barbarian tribes were eager to throw off the Macedonian yoke and longed for the rule of their native kings: As for the Greek states, although Philip had defeated them in battle, he had not had time to subdue them or accustomed them to his authority. Alexander's Macedonian advisers feared that a crisis was at hand and urged the young king to leave the Greek states to their own devices and refrain from using any force against them. [p.263] [Alexander chose the opposite course] Plutarch never said that Philip "united" the Greeks, but he states that Philip "defeated" them in battle. Plutarch Ancient Greek Historian GÇ¥The Age of AlexanderGÇ¥"Thebans countered by demanding the surrender of Philotas and Antipater and appealing to all who wished to liberate Greece to range themselves on their side, and at this Alexander ordered his troops to prepare for battle." [p.264] [The ones who want to liberate Greece against the Macedonian troops] Plutarch Ancient Greek Historian GÇ¥The Age of AlexanderGÇ¥"While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece." [p.212] Pl

"The maladies and defects in the Greek scene of the fourth century were not hard to find. But its great and overriding merit is summed up in the word 'freedom.' With allowance made for the infinite variety promoted by so many independent governments, Greece was still broadly speaking a free country. This freedom was threatened and in the end extinguished by the coming of the great Macedonians." [p.8] [In Plutarch The Age of Alexander, noted by J.T.Griffith]"Alexander meanwhile dealt swiftly with the unrest in Greece - not only did the Athenians rejoice at PhilipGÇÖs death, but the Aetolians, the Thebans, as well as Spartans and the Peloponnesians, were ready to throw off the Macedonian yoke. (Diod. 17.3.3-5) - and he marched south into Thessaly, demanding the loyalty of its people in the name of their common ancestors, Achilles (Justin 11.3.1-2; cf. Diod. 17.4.1). And with speed and diplomacy Alexander brought the Thebans and Athenians into submission (Diod. 17.4.4-6) Alexander, in a letter, responds to Darius: "His Majesty Alexander to Darius: Greetings. The Darius whose name you have assumed wrought utter destruction upon the Greek inhabitants of the Hellespontine coast and upon the Greek colonies of Ionia, and then crossed the sea with a mighty army, bringing the war to Macedonia and Greece." [p.50-1] [Alexander here himself clearly separates Greece from Macedonia] Quintus Curtius Rufus Roman Historian GÇ£The History of AlexanderGÇ¥ - Penguin Classics Translation by John Yardley.
Peter Green: [50,000 strong Greeks were with Darius fighting the Macedonians, while Alexander took only 7,000 Greeks next to his Macedonians which served as "hostages" and "were potential trouble makers", (Green) which he got rid of only when he learned that the rebellion in Greece against the Macedonian occupation forces there was suppressed (Badian, Borza). The fact that 50,000 Greeks were fighting AlexanderGÇÖs Macedonians shows clearly that their loyalty and their numerical superiority lies with Darius and his Persians, not with Alexander and his Macedonians. As Peter Green puts it: "if this was a Greek conquest where were the Greek troops?" AlexanderGÇÖs conquest can not therefore be at all a Greek conquest, but simply a Macedonian conquest.]
[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before

"It came to pass, that during the absence of exertion on the part of the Greeks, the name of the Macedonians, previously mean and obscure, rose into notice; and Philip, who bad been kept three years as a hostage at Thebes, and had been imbued with the virtues of Epaminondas and Pelopidas, imposed power of Macedonia, like a yoke of bondage, upon the necks of Greece and Asia" [6.9]. Justin Roman Historian

"Philip assigned the number of troops to be furnished by each state and only the King of Macedonia will be the commander of their forces. Weather Macedonia was attacked or was in a war with any other power, the Greek troops assigned by Philip had to support the Macedonian army and serve under him as their general. It's obvious that Philip had Persia in mind and knew that this is the point that obligated the Greeks to serve his dream of conquering that empire. The Macedonian army, which will have the exclusive status, was to be supported by the Greek army and by the armies of the adjacent conquered nations" [9.5.5-8]. Justin Roman Historian

"Antipater was appointed governor of Macedonia and Greece" [13.4.5] Justin Roman Historian

"After the death of Pyrrhus there were great warlike commotions not only in Macedonia, but in Asia and Greece" [26.1.1] Justin Roman HistorianThe Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4. Diodorus Ancient Greek Historian

I can post about 100 more quotes that I have documented. This being said, I know of some (but not that many) quotes that imply that Alexander thought of himself as Greek. One other Historical source, though it is too late (and not accurate), is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible called the Septuagint. In Daniel Chapter 8, the Greek word is "Hellenon" for Alexander's empire.It seems to me that maybe Alexander wanted his Macedonians to be Greek, but we do not have any writtings of common Ancient macedonians to understand what they thought. It appears many Greeks (the overwhelming majority) did cosider the northerners barbarians and not Greeks. Maybe it was just the Kingly elite in Macedon trying to Hellenize their Norther balkan tribal peoples to bring them some civilization? One time in Plutarch (I think it was Plutarch, maybe Arrian) Alexander says Phillip made them civilized and not sheep herders (Alexander said this during the Mutany when the troops would go no farther.)Just a simple reading of Plutarch XII-XIII seems Plutarch is adament the Macedonians were not Hellens.
I guess what I am saying is when I read Lane Fox or other books, the Greekness of Alexander is overblown compared to the ancient sources which seem to state something different. Thus, while in the past I asked about the Greekness of Alexander, I think the uneducated me made too many assumptions. Now that I have so much reading under my belt, I do not think it is so cut and dry. I think it was Alexander, Macedonians, and Persians fighting in India, Alexander dismissed the Greek troops. (mercenaries)
Bob

Arrian speaks of ethnic and racial rivalry between Macedonians and Greeks:
[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." [p.119] Arrian Ancient Greek Historian The Campaigns of AlexanderAntiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other shipsGǪ 18.15.7-8. Diodorus Ancient Greek Historian

Bob,This is the Greek - Macedonian debate (although stated as well thought out questions) that is not supposed to appear on this posting board. It's one of those that tend to degenerate.Rex

you have tooooo much time on your hands.Alexandros was and will always be hellenic.Macedonians are a hellenic race, long b4 ATG.go to greece and see with your own eyes.its all greek to me.

No please, dont delete the posts, i have to reply.Here it goes: Many people only see and use Demosthenes' polemic against Philip (and of some other people who opposed the Macedonian rulership) and thus say that the Macedonian language was not a greek dialect and that Macedonians were considered as barbarians.There are dozens of facts proving why this statement is false.I will try to show some of them as briefly as i can. Euripides lived many years and died in Macedonia. Many of his tragedies were written and played while he was in Macedonia.
If the macedonians were barbarians this would have been almost impossible. This is because in one of these
tragedies, 'Iphigeneia in Aulis', the Greek superiority over
the barbarians is emphasized. The epigram in memory of
Euripides which is attributed by some authors to Thucydides may
show us the beliefs of the people of that
time (and possibly Thucydides)
"MNHMA MEN ELLAS APAS' EYRIPIDOU, OSTEA D' ISXEI
GH MAKEDVN, H GAR DEJATO TERMA BIOU".
In brief, Macedonia, the land that holds the bones of Euripides
is considered part of Greece. The macedonians were generally isolated from the greeks of southern Greece up to the 5th century bc.So,they didnt use the word "Hellas" or "Hellen" to describe in a whole the lands of the various hellenic tribes.And this was also true for the rest of the greek tribes until the 8th century bc.So the macedonians used the word "Macedonian" to describe themselves instead of the word "hellenes".This is the reason why Isocrates for example uses on one hand the words "hellenes" and "macedonians" and oin the other hand he uses "barbarians" to seperate the greek tribes (hellenes and macedonians) from non greek (barbarians). The macedonians spoke a greek doric dialect,which was mainly influenced by the aeolic dialect spoken by thessalians,their neighboors,and also borrowed some words from Phrygia and Illyria.There are many evidence for that ,such as: Coins found in Macedonia have inscriptions in greek and are dated
from the early 5th BC century.Like,An octadrachm of Alexander I (circa 478BC),coins from the reign of Archelaos (413-399BC) and Amyntas III (393-370BC),the ring of Sindos with the word Gk:'DVRON' (Gift)dated around 480BC.

The names of the months used by Macedonians were Greek and were different from the ones used by the
Athenians.These names used by the Macedonians and
the names used by the Lacedaemonians (who were Dorians)
have a common intersection, the names Artemisios and Apellaios.
Persians (while they were on their conquests on greece in 500-480 bc)described the people living in Macedonia
as "The Greeks wearing a shield-like hat" and who were non other
than the Macedonians themselvesThere are also athenian commedies,such as the one from Strattis that made fun of the idioms used by other greeks,spartans,boeoteans,and macedonians. In some parts of this comedy a
macedonian explains how various words of the attic dialect are
called in the Macedonian dialect.And of course we have the many places and names in Macedonia which had (and still have) greek origin,and were also found in other parts of Greece.Like Argos,Arethoyssa,Gortynia,Prassias e.t.c.Also we have the names on the tombs of Vergina,that were all greek. Now,about the sources and Alexander.We have the famous incident of "ANEBOA MAKEDONISTI".This is what Plutarch tells us that Alexander yelled at his ypaspistes.But we dont see that on Arrian.Arrian describing this episode that resulted in the death of Kleitos used the following
phrase: " ALEJANDROS DE EBOA ANAKALVN TOYS YPASPISTAS".No refferences to "Makedonisti".And Arrian used the oldest sources (these of Aristovoulos and Ptolemy).The word Makedonisti must be a word added later by some translators,or the interpretaion of it was not the one intended by Plutarch.Because we have also the fact that Alexander following this incident Alexander talked to his YPASPISTAS in attic greek.So he couldnt have spoken to them in "Makedonisti".

About the incindent with Philotas speaking to Alexander in attic:Neither Arrhianos, nor Plutarchos present this incident mentioned in the work of Kurtius Rufus.H. Bardon, French publisher of Rufus's
works (pub. Belles Lettres vol 1 page 201 note 1) commenting on
this speech of Filotas said that Kurtius Rufus was accustomed to rhetoric artifices and as a result historic truth suf-
fered in that part of his work.So considering the fact that neither Arrian or Plutarch mention this incident,it can be concluded that this passage was a product of Kurtius' rhetoric talents. About Demosthenes: When he said that Philip was a barbarian we can assume it was a figure of speech,because Demosthenes's mother (or his maternal grandmother) was a Skythian, a non-Greek anf thus a non-Athenian. Had his accusation been
taken seriously we could have been accused and for a good reason
of being a barbarian himself. And also an ancient writer of that time tells us:"YBRISAI TOYTON (meaning FILIP-
PON DEMOSUENHS) BOYLOMENOS KALEIN BARBARON, EPEI TO ALHUES
SKOPHSEI, EYRHSEI AYTON ELLHNAN ARGEION KAI APO HRAKLEOYS TO
GENOS KATAGOMENON, VS PANTES OI ISTORIKOI MARTYROYSIN..." Meaning that all the historians say that Phillip was a greek "argeios" (from argos) and from the genealogy of Hercules. And of course Demosthenes himself has been twice in Macedonia as a diplomat long before his flaming speeches against Phillip and he never complained about macedonians being barbarians or speaking a non greek language.Contrary,he was dazzled by the riches of Philip's palace.

And there are also many other texts,such as of Isocrates,which show us that the Macedonians were not considered as non-greeks or barbarians,but the contrary. We must understand that macedonians only defined themselves as macedonians because they were not in contact with the rest of southern greece for many years, before the 5th century,but also because every greek tribe defined themselves as Athenians,Spartans e.t.c. So for the above and many other reasons that space doesnt allow me to present,it is safe to say that Alexander was a greek,along with the other macedonians,inspite of Demosthenes' efforts to present him as a barbarian or whatever else...

Hi Bob,This is a very interesting collection of material, but not every mention of a macedonian custom points to a different ethnicity. Ancient Greece certainly was no unified whole and there were a lot of different customs and traditions throughout the Greek world. Unfortunately I don't have the time to give a reply which is as detailed as your question, but I hope a few examples will suffice to make my point clear.There was not one Greek calendar, so the fact that the Macedonian monthname differs from the Athenian one doesn't prove anything. Moreover, a recent study of Greek month names (Catherine Tr++mpy, Untersuchungen zu den altgriechischen Monatsnamen und Monatsfolgen, Heidelberg 1997.) concluded that the Macedonian monthnames are Greek (which does not necessarily say anything about whether or not the Macedonians themselves were Greek! Many people having english as mother tongue for many generations aren't even remotely English when it comes to ethnicity).The problem of Macedonian speech is that linguists do not seem to agree on whether it really was a different language, or simply a very divergent Greek dialect.One should also not conclude to much from institutions. If there was a macedonian tradition about capital cases, that doesn't mean they weren't Greek. There were a lot of different legal and political traditions throughout the Greek world, take for instance the differences between Athens and Sparta, to name but the most famous example.To conclude, the question is so complex and at present we don't have any decisive evidence, so it's not really to possible to give a straightforward answer.regards,abm

Wow, this is interesting, I should like to ask a few questions. One, what kind of language is discovered at the tomb of Vergina? Other than the artifacts, has any evidence of language been found there? Thanks. If so, what is it?