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I am posting this seperately so all can see it because it is important.I apologise to the moderators but this has to do directly with the sources and the translations. Bob the quote that you have given us from Arrian is wrong,and to be more specific not translated correctly.That's why i am talking about mis-translations.Ok, here is the original ancient greek prototype (which i have in a book) and the translation of it.But first the quote that you gave us so we can see the differences (and massacres): "[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian." [p.119] Arrian Ancient Greek Historian The Campaigns of Alexander" Now the original Ancient Greek: (For those who can see greek fonds U=Θ,V=Ω,J=Ξ)
"KAI TO ERGON ENTAYUA KARTERON HN,TVN MEN ES TON POTAMON APVSASUAI TOYS MAKEDONAS KAI THN NIKHN TOIS HDH FEYGOYSIN AYTVN I'NASVSASUAI.TVN MAKEDONVN DE THS TE ALEJANDROY HDH FAINOMENHS EYPRAGIAS MH LEIFUHNAI KAI THN DOJAN THS FALLAGGOS ,VS AMAXOY DH ES TO TOTE DIABEBOHMENHS,MH AFANISAI.KAI TI KAI TOIS GENESI TV TE ELLHNIKV KAI TV MAKEDONIKV FILOTIMIAS ENEPESEN EIS ALLHLOYS.KAI ENTAYUA PIPTEI PTOLEMAIOS TE O SELEYKOY" e.t.c Translation: In that spot the battle was very persistant.On the one hand the Persians were fighting to throw in the river the Macedonians,and to save the day (because of the many Persians fleeing),on the other hand the Macedonians ,and because Alexander's victory was obvious,didnt want to look inferior and to damage the glory of the Phallanx,as if due to weakness they didnt take part in the battle, which until then was the most famous phallanx.(The most powerfull,out of competition).
BETWEEN THE TWO TRIBES (CLANS)THE GREEK AND THE MACEDONIAN DEVELOPED DUTEOUS (CONSIENTIOUS) ANTAGONISM.In that battle fell (was killed) Ptolemy son of Seleykus... e.t.c. So you can see the obvious difference between the two translations.I made the translation directly from the ancient greek original.(anyone that knows ancient greek can verify) and ...cont...

there is nowhere mentioned that the fight was further embittered by an old racial rivalry between the greeks and the macedonians.But on the contrary the text says that there was developed a duteous antagonism between the greeks and macedonians as they were trying to prove their worth to their King respectively.And all that during this particular battle. This is a serious matter.Because either the translator was drunk,or he didnt know ancient greek well enough,or it was deliberately translated like this.

Thanks, I know Greek too. But I do not have a book of Arian in Greek, I only have Plutarch in Greek (Loeb Classical.) SHould I assume that there is an Arian Loeb Classical as well so I can order that? Thanks
Bob

But why then does Arrian use both words "Greeks" and "Macedonians."? Why doesn't he say "Athenians" and Macedonians?" for example. Or why doesn't he us a word like "other Greeks."? I am not meaning to play devils advocate, but if I was talking to a modern Day Balkan, I imagine that would be their counter argument. Thus, lets attack all possible counter arguments?!

Bob here is a link that i found of the ancient greek text of Arrian on the web:http://geocities.com/greektexts/Arriano ... asis2.html it's the second book and if you have greek fonds installed in your windows then you can read it. As for why Arrian mentions Macedonians and Greeks, that happens because Macedonia was a large kingdom and for many hundreds of years almost independant from the rest of greece.Meaning that they didnt have much communication with the southerners.While the Athenians,Thebeans,Spartans e.t.c sruggled in battles one against eachother,the macedonians were mostly out of this.And that's why most people called them Macedonians seperately from the other greeks.But they had Dorian origin as many of the other greeks had.And the fact that they were isolated for a long time made them to have some silghtly different customs (depending to the local characteristics of the territory too),but nevertheless greek customs,and they also developed their own dorian dialect which of course borrowed many words from their neighboors,the thessalians and Hippirotians.

I donGÇÖt-á know if I can respond to this without appearing to offend (not my intention), but IGÇÖll do my best.(1)-á IGÇÖm not sure why this needed another thread.(2)-á Now HERE, in particular,-áis where I do not mean to offend.-á The fact that you are a native Greek means that you have a comprehensive understanding of the modern Greek language, not the ancient one.-á What you definitely do not have is total familiarity with the written English of scholars which is absolutely necessary in order to translate an ancient document into our language.-á And even then, any translation is going to be interpretive to a degree GÇô a word-for-word translation can be almost intelligible, as is demonstrated somewhat by your own effort.-á You have used it to illustrate a particular word you feel is mistranslated, but in general the sentence construction is convoluted and ArrianGÇÖs meaning is difficult to follow.-á This is why GÇ£interpretationGÇ¥ is necessary and why it doesnGÇÖt follow that being a native Greek means that you will always know better than the experts.(3)-á Yes, there are sometimes errors in translations, or, more often,-ádisagreements about meaning.-á If there werenGÇÖt, then there would be only one definitive English translation of every ancient work.-á Because of this issue, the work of one translator is often preferred over another.-á Suggesting a translator might be drunk because you donGÇÖt agree with part of his work is a little much, donGÇÖt you think?(4) Of course there are other translations of Arrian.-á One - E. Chinnock, 1983, from SusanGÇÖs site --ásays: GÇ£Moreover the feeling of rivalry which existed between the Grecian and Macedonian races inspired each side in the conflict.GÇ¥-á The Penguin Classics says: GÇ£The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian.GÇ¥-á BruntGÇÖs Loeb translations says: GÇ£There was also some emulation between antagonists of the Greek and Macedonian races.GÇ¥-á Frankly, all three translations work equally well for me, but then, IGÇÖm not fixated on this whole Greek/Macedonian issue.(5)-á To illustrate why knowing and speaking modern Greek is not enough in itself, there is the following-áfrom the intro to a beautiful little book called Pure Pagan: Seven Centuries of Greek Poems and Fragments, by Burton Raffel.-á (Intro is by Guy Davenport, author of ten books of critical commentary and seven of translations of Greek texts.)GÇ£. . . The English language was shaped by Danish Vikings trying to talk to Angles and Saxons.

GÇ£. . . The English language was shaped by Danish Vikings trying to talk to Angles and Saxons.-á In 1066 Norman French was added to the mixture (itself being an evolved Latin dialect).-á We still say GÇ£last will and testament,GÇ¥ along with many other legal terms that accommodate both English and French ears.-á The law was in Latin; science was in Greek. . . Translators into English have four vocabularies at their disposal: archaic Dano-Saxon, French, Latin, and Greek.-á Burton Raffel uses basic English, mainly, understanding that heGÇÖs working with plain Greek.-á-á No word in another language exactly fits an English word.-á I recently did a translation of the sayings of Jesus in which John the Baptist turns up as John the Dipper.-á That's what Greek ears heard: a man named John who dipped people in a river.-á Not all Greek words have an equivalent in English.-á In a poem of Theocritus a goat is eating something.-á Look up what he's eating in a Greek-English dictionary.-á The definition is "a plant eaten by a goat in Theocritus."-á-á In a beautiful hymn to Aphrodite we arenGÇÖt certain whether the goddess is sitting on an intricately carved throne or wearing an elaborately embroidered dress.Philological problems can be solved; the problems of distant sentiments remain.-á Pathos, humor, sarcasm, appetence, grief, satire: these spin differently in other cultures.-á When Priapos, the fertility god, is sporting an erection, is he comic, erotic, worshipful, or grotesque? . . .GÇ¥This is why there are people who specialize in translations.-á Best regards,Amyntoros

G'day Amyntoros.I would not have been able to say without offending. Personally, I found the slur with respect to drunkenness and/or furthering an agenda in the very least hyperbole and insulting at worst.There are many, many references in Arrian (and others) to the Macedonians and "the Greeks". A cursory reading suggests enough are made to suggest that in ancient times the two were considered generally as "different". The overt and consistent "philhellenism" of successive Macedonian courts and their longstanding attempts at being recognised as Greek are a reaction to something.An absolutely succinct summation of the vagaries of translation, similar GÇô indeed more furious GÇô disagreements may be found with respect to the meaning behind Thucydides' chosen words.Paralus.

im going blue in the face repeating myself.the modern balkans have nothing to do with the Ancient Greeks, especially the Macedonians who were Greek.there were no slavs in ancient greece. period.
modern day fyrom for example are a slavic race,modern people of slavic origin in the balkans today feel the need to associate themselves with Alexander the Great and the History of Ancient Macedonia, which is all Greek. they are trying to steal an identity, a culture, a greek one.

Hear, hear to both you and Amyntoros. I didn't reply earlier myself because I am sure I would have offended - I think you covered it all extremely well.ATBMarcus

Hmmm...I agree with what you had to say. I agree, translation is not an exact science. For me as a Jew, Translating certain aramaic or Hebrew phrases into English is hard because there is no word for word match. (THe word "Shalom" for example means not just "peace" from war, but a fulness, a prosperity, a financial state of goodness, and a good state of family and emotional well being. It comes from a verb to be "complete/perfect" which has nothing to do with war. Thus Shalom is used to say hello and good bye. It is wishing someone a complete state of well being.)
Greek is much harder, having three verb declensions and a much more elaborate verb syntax. I would say my greek is not expert level. Greek is a much more developed language. Not to mention, as one who studied for 2 years in Israel, and who goes back every year, there is a difference between ancient Hebrew and modern Hebrew. Not just in vocabulary. since there is a difference (not that great though) between Homer's Greek and the New Testament's Greek, I must assume there has to be with modern greek as well, with Koine Greek, but remember I know zero modern Greek, and Hebrew and English are my languages that I can say I am fluent in. My greek is not so well versed.

Thank you, that is very helpful indeed!

This is really off topic but . . .Bob, you mentioned you have some facility with Aramaic. I'm looking for a word in Aramaic (transliterated into English) for 'immortal'. Do you have any idea?Thanks in advance ;)Scott

Trying to translate something in another language with as much possible accuracy as you can (due to the differences in the languages) is one thing,but altering a meaning is another thing.And especially when that meaning in the end becomes a debate between countries. What Arrian says in this sentence is differend than the engilsh translation which as you have already pointed is almost the same in three or four diffferent versions.Now,i find this very peculiar.Is it possible that four translators made the same mistake?I dont know,but the point is that the translation is wrong,and that's a fact and it's not a random sentence or phrase,but a phrase that has been used in national-ethnic debate.And this is serious. Yes,the characterism "drunk" may have been a little too much.But the translator is supposed to translate accurately without adding his own interpretations.And anyway if the translator makes a mistake in a phrase like "the macedonians ate and went to sleep" then it wouldnt make much of a difference and you could let it go,but when it's about "old racial rivalry of greeks and macedonians" then its a whole lot of a difference.I hope you get the point. P.G: The translator may make one sentence into 3 sentences in order to give the meaning.Greeks do that too for ancient texts.It's how the ancient attic was.And the translator (in english) can also maybe use techniques to make the sentences look nicer (because word to word translation would be aukward),but in no way he can alter a meaning.

And i still dont get how "the two tribes (GENESI) macedonian and greek fought duteous (FILOTIMIAN),can become like "old racial rivalry of greeks and macedonians".This interpretation doesnt come out of the entire paragraph in any way you see it. I dont mean to insult anyone,but quotes like this can be used for various purposes as you know,and in conclusion a false translation is a false translation and alters history in any way you see it.