pothos.org

I need some help from people who know a bit more greek than I do. (Remember, I learned "Biblical Greek" as a bible student and not really "classical greek" thus I am struggling to catch up to learn real greek.) Nonetheless, can everyone look up this link:
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/m ... 12.jpgThis is a picture of a coin I bought this weekend (though mine is in mint condition.) Green talks about this on P.3 od his book, referencing Plutarch's comment on Philip issuing a silver coin with a horse and naked rider with a palm brach in commemoration of his olympic game victory.Look at how Philip is spelled on the coin. The "Phi" is in the shape of a T. (Plus, Green and others believe that Philip was pronounced "Billip" by the Macedonians.) THus, is this a "different letter" or variation in their alphabet. HERE IS THE KICKER, look at how the "pi"s are. (First this coin says "Philip-poy." (Of Philip.) But the "Philip" is above the rider, and the "Poy" (Pou) is in front. But look at the "p"s. That letter must be a Macedonian "pi" letter right? I have never seen that form of the letter pi (P in English.) (of course, when I read Plutarch or Diodorus from Loeb classical liabrary, everythng is in small case, but ancient greek was all capital letters.) Thus, am I missing something? THis Philip coin was Issued in Amphipolis. To me, it shows that one or two or more of the letters in the Macedonian alphabet were at least slightly different from their greek counterparts. Any comments or am I missing anything?
(PS-the clown that is calling us morons and who thinks wrongly we think the Macedonians were slavs need not reply.) To me, this is a serious question, and it is in no way political. I am trying to better understand the Macedonian dialect. That being said, I own many Alexandrou coins, and those letters are no different from the standard greek letters, but the PHI and the PI (oddly enough P sounding letters) may be different, and I have seen no good scholarly articles discussing this...thanks all
Bob

I think my post was confusing, I am not just asking about the first letter on the coin, but the Ps (capitalized here "philiP-Poy) The two "pi"s in the middle of his name. Those are not the typical greek shape of the letter "pi." (It is not the pi symbol, e.i 3.14 and whatever.) For example, on my Ptolemy coins, Ptolemy Soter (I) (Alexander's former General) spells his name with a standard "pi" letter on his coins, with Zeus on the front, and an eagle on the back. Hope this is more clear, thanks again!

Bob, the first letter is not a "T".It's an F. (+û).It's just the way they have portrayed it in the coin.T has an upper horizontal line on top of the vertical line.This letter has the horizontal line in the middle,thus its not a T.This horizontal line is actually something like a circle like in the greek +û.Do you see the resemblence now?(I remember that you can see greek fonds on your pc,so you can see the greek letters that i post).As to why they portrayed the F in thsi way,i dont know,but it is an F. As for the two Pis (+É), the name Philip in greek is written with double P.(+û+¬+½+¬+¦+¦+»+¦).But it's not necessary that everyone wrote it like this. The P as it is shown in the coin may be like this due to the shape of the coin or it just may be the way the man who created this wrote it.

I know that it is not a "tau" or a T. I meant it was the shape of a "t" lower case. ANcient greek was only all caps, and thus, it would have appeared as a T. However, almost all Philip issued coins have "P"s like this, I can give you several hundred thumnails of ancient coins of his, NOT ONE of his ancient coins minted anywhere have a normal "pi" letter. Thus, at this point, I agree in point with your reply, that is probably the letter "Phi" (although the Macedonains pronounced it as a "B"). But, literally ALL of Philip's coin issues were this way. Thus, the shape of that letter is intentional and it was understood as being written intentionally that way by the people of Macedonia and Amphipolis. Most of Philip's coins were minted in Pella and Amphipolis. Unlike Alexander, who first started minting his coins in Sept 333, Philip did not have over 100 mints issuing his coins, he never conquered asia. Thus, his coins were for the northern Greeks and those conquered by him. Thus, to me, the FACT that all of his coins (I have many a bronze coin of Philip, all with their "Pi"s that way.) But all of Ptolemy Soter's coins have the normal looking Pi letter. Does this make sense?

Sorry, again I do not think I was clear. Maybe I am a big Mallaka? What I meant to say was that ALL of philips coinage has this spelling, and I am aware all is a strong word. Below is a link where you can view several hundred of Philip's coins. All of his "pi"s are like that. Thus, I am wondering if this is a Macedonian dialect letter?
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/m ... philip_II/

Yes it is probably how the Pi was written in macedonian dialect.The change of the Pi in the coins by Ptolemy Soter may have to do with the fact that Alexander maybe decided to bring the macedonian way of writting closer to the attic one.

Actually i was wrong.The letter Pi was the same in the attic and macedonian and the rest of greece too.Look here:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/greek.html Btw, the theory that the greek alphabet originated from the phoinician (that is mentioned in the top of the link), is questionable.There have been found greek scriptures with greek letters long before the phoinician presence.

Thank you for that response, very helpful. I do beleive that the Proto-Sinaitic language was before the Phonecian script. You may be correct too, that Greek did not come entirely from the Phonecian. Remember, the Phonecian script is actually the Paleo Hebrew of early bible times, and it went the oposite direction of English and Greek. Somehow, someone will have to explain to me how the language changed direction if it came from Phonecian. That can't happen overnight. Phonician is much closer to Hebrew than Greek is my opinion, but I am not a linguist.

I agree with you, after checking that site out, Philip is using ancient Greek, and not necessarily his dialect.
Bob

"Do you guys have as much disdain towards Peter Green, Bosworth, and Borza (and many other scholars)- as you do me? Or is it my Jewishness that sets me apart" Bob please tell me where I have ever brought up your nationality or mine for that matter? I do not know nor care what etnicity or religion Green, Borza or Bosworth are. I do beleive Borza does have a anti Greek agenda ( I will explain later).I personally beleive that Isreal has a right to exist within safe and secure borders. However,modern politics is a seperate issue.There was no nation state of Greece in the modern sense.There was no nation state of Italy till Garbaldi or Germany till Bismark.Every political enitity in the Greek world had their own foreign policy alliances ect.The modern nation was not known to the ancients.Macedonia itself prior to Phillip was a patchwork of essentially indepenent Cannons Your obviously not aware of Greek history.Persia had for centuries tried to bankroll powers in the Greek states when Persian interests were threatened and they always had plenty of willing Greek participants.

"Do you guys have as much disdain towards Peter Green, Bosworth, and Borza (and many other scholars)- as you do me? Borza and Green use their own subjective interpitation dimissing testimonies of pre Phillip historians who had no motive to conclude that Macedonians were of the original Greek source as propaganda even when its supported by acheological evidence. A large % of historians firmly conclude that Macedonians were Dorians ( Hammond,Fox,Wilken,Charles Freeman,Norman Cantor,Paul Cartlege and tons of others) Borza contradicts himself when he says he accepts Macedonians were proto Hellenes that became Hellanized---- Green use the term sub Homeric but even Green states that Macedonians were similar to Spartans and that they were essentially Greeks living in the Mycenean age . Badian ,Borza and Green are admitted Revisionist.Borza does out of his way to virtually dismiss the testomonies of herodotus ,hesoid,hellenicus the perians the tons of archeological artifats with Greek symbols and scripture yet claims that Macedonians dissapeared yet states there is a Modern Macedonian nationality based on a cemmetary in Pittsburg Pa.Testimonies of ancients and hard evidence are dismissed yet a cemmetary containing immigrants from the 1800s from the Ottoman Provence of Macedonia is sufficient evidence for a modern nation. While I agree that modern politics is irrevelent to the ancients it is evident that Borza does have a political agenda.

I am aware that Persia tried to bank role Greek states, they had more capital than the Greeks ever dreamed.
Jim, we can discuss things and learn from one another. I should stop making religious posts on Hebrew subjects. Can we drop the subject? Thanks

I honestly do not have a political agenda. I can care less bout the political situation, totally. Remember, I am 8-9 months into this, I will continue to learn and grow, so long as you are polite, if you are nto the other guy, good. 1 kind word in truth speaks more than 1,000 in patronizing and disrespect. Let me learn, and if you want to give me herodotus quotes, I will learn, and accept, a guy today convinced me of the Greekness on Philip;s coins, yet the other guy has zero chance of teaching anyone anything, and his attitude is proof that he is not teachable. I think I am teachable.

Bob , I have nothing against you referring to Hebrews
in terms of making analogies if it relates to the subject. I refer to the fact that ancient Greece ( in cluding Greek Macedonia)was not a political entity but was somewhat similar to the Italian and German states before they were unified under Garabaldi and Bismark.As for diolects I used Spain which has many regional diolects barely understood to Spainiards outside the region yet Castilian is the standard diolect. I do have a problem with you implying that attacking Borza views is anti Semetic ( especially since I do not even know nor care about his ethno religious appelation) I never brought up your ethnicity.

Here is what Peter Green says about Macedonia-Essentially he is saying that Macedonians were in fact primitive Greeks that held on to outdated insistitutions.He also compares Macedonia to Sparta in the sense they had early Greek feudal insitutions as opposed to Democracy-- As Herodotus testified the common Doric origins of both Sparta and Macedonia and ligustic scriptures verify.Perhaps you do not fully understand what Green is trying to say. I have his book Alexander of Macedon in front of me.Here are some quotes
ALEXANDER OF MACEDONpg 17 (again Homer provides a close paralell ,in the example of of achilles and the Myrmidos)At least as early as the 5th century BC Argeads were claiming traditional suzerainty over Upper Macedonia on quesi Hommeric linesthe overloardship resembl;ed AGAMEMNON over his fellow kings The argeads themselves headed pedigree with HERACLES stly ZEUS born like any MYCENEAN DYNASTY Macedonias OUTDATED institutions were despised by the REST of GREECEhere so often in MACEDONIA MYCENEAN parrelels apply like SPARTA it it preseved instutions such as Kingship and baronial feudalismThe men of lower MACEDONIA worshiped GREEK GODS and the ROYAL FAMILY claimed decent from HERACLESLYNCESTIS was ruled by decendents of the BACCHIAD DYNASTY who moved on to MACEDONIA following theie explusion from CORINTH in in 657 BC