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Under the "Was Alexander a God" Topic, there was alot of discussion re: Oracles. A book called "The Oracle: The lost secrerts and hidden message of Ancient Delphi" by William J. Broad. Penguin Press, (2006). might shed some light on the topic. I have not read it, so can't comment on how good it is. The book review, in Scientific American (2006), Vol 294(5),p 79 states- 'Broad, a writer at the New York Times, tells the story of scientists who worked from subtle clues scattered through ancient literature and the landforms near Delphi to uncover evidence that explains the oracle's powers........(This is the part i liked) They discovered that..vapours actually existed( because this theory has often been discounted)..they were PETROCHEMICAL fumes that contained a hallucinogenic gas...' . It sounds like a very interesting read and i thought i would bring it to everyones attention.

Especially since Alexander visited the oracle at Delphi. Didn't he drag her out to the shrine forcing her to answer his question to the oracle, even thogh he had arrived on an unfavourable day. She finally claimed he was "invincible". I think this gives us great insight into Alexanders regard for the sacred (used when it suited him and to serve his purpose)

Aspasia wrote:Especially since Alexander visited the oracle at Delphi. Didn't he drag her out to the shrine forcing her to answer his question to the oracle, even thogh he had arrived on an unfavourable day. She finally claimed he was "invincible". I think this gives us great insight into Alexanders regard for the sacred (used when it suited him and to serve his purpose)

Given that the story is true GÇô it fits with the man's nature GÇô it rather eloquently illustrates his regard for the Pythia eh?

The Greeks GÇô in general GÇô had waned significantly in their regard for the Delphic Oracle. Even going as far as to raid its treasures so as to fund the hire of mercenaries for their internecine wars. The same was not quite so true of the Macedonians. Although a rolled gold opportunity for Philip GÇô a man about as likely to pass on an opportunity as he was the breath of life (or the next crater of wine) GÇô the Sacred War had a religious significance, not least for his soldiers. That said, Philip well knew what got things done in the real world: gold (silver), lies (diplomacy) and the pernicious prose presented by rows of serried sarissas. If your course of action seems validated by the Pthyia's prognostications, so much the better.

I think the son, though religious enough, was no less practical. Certainly he needed no sacrificial instructions from Ammon.

Paralus wrote:Given that the story is true it fits with the man's nature GÇô it rather eloquently illustrates his regard for the Pythia eh?

A bit of a cryptic comment, Paralus, and I am not sure if you doubt the veracity of the tale or not. However, I am going to wax lyrical (or, if not lyrical, I am simply going to wax) on this topic as I have long had strong opinions about this reported event at Delphi.

I have consulted the Loeb translation which I consider to be the most trustworthy, wherein Plutarch (Alexander 14.4-5) says that Alexander chanced to come on one of the inauspicious days, when it is not lawful to deliver oracles. For a start, I doubt that chance played any part in Alexander's visit. The days on which the oracle could be consulted were known by all and sundry and Alexander could hardly have been out of the loop on this information. Preparations were necessary before the oracle could be consulted - preparations of a religious nature and of extreme importance. Consulting the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (which I like to quote because it gives sources) we find that:

"The Pythia always spent three days, before she ascended the tripod, in preparing herself for the solemn act, and during this time she fasted, and bathed in the Castalian well, and dressed in a simple manner ; she also burnt in the temple laurel leaves and flour of barley upon the altar of the god. (Schol. ad Eurip. Plioeru 2:30 ; Plut.. de Pyili. Or. c. 6.) Those who consulted the oracle had to sacrifice a goat, or an ox, or a sheep, and it was necessary that these victims should be healthy in body and soul, and to ascertain this they had to undergo, a peculiar scrutiny. An ox received barley, and a; sheep chick-peas, to see whether they ate them with appetite ; water was poured over the goats,, and if this put them into a thorough tremble the victim was good. (Pint, de Or. Def. 49.) The victim which was thus found eligible was called dffiurrip. (Plut. Quaest. Gr. 9.) , Wachsmuth (HeLlen. Alt. ii. p. 588,2.d ed.) states that all who came to consult the oracle-wore laurel-garlands surrounded with ribands of wool ; but the passages from which this opinion is derived, only speak of such persons as came to the temple as suppliants."

All this before the god could be consulted, for it was the god who gave the oracle through the Pythia - the priestess herself was not an embodiment of Apollo. She had no religious or legal authority to speak for Apollo under any other circumstances, unlike monotheistic priests of a later age. So when she proclaimed to Alexander Thou are invincible, my son, these were simply the words of a fearful old woman and no substitute for a true prophecy. And, of course, Alexander would have known this, as would everyone else in attendance upon him.

Now if Alexander truly arrived at Delphi at a time when no oracles were authorized, I am fairly certain the magistrates would have made an exception for him. The law governing when and how often oracles could be given were most likely made to protect the life of the Pythia rather than because of any religious governance. Too frequent exposure to the toxic and hallucinogenic gasses would have sent the priestesses to an early grave - this was one of the rare situations in Hellas where the women became priestesses (and prophetesses) for life. However, even if an oracle was approved by the magistrates for Alexander, the Pythia would still have needed the three days to prepare. This situation is similar to, yet at the same time quite unlike the one at Siwah, where Alexander was allowed to consult the oracle without bathing. At Siwah the basic message conveyed was, you are above all other mortals and need not follow this particular rule. At Delphi it would have been different because if they had gone ahead immediately with an oracle it was the Pythia and the temple, not Alexander, who would have been breaking with religious tradition - and to such a degree that it would probably have destroyed the reputation of Delphi for time immemorial!

So, what if Alexander could not wait, as is implied by Plutarch? I don't understand the impatience to begin with. If he was really in a hurry he could have left someone there to receive the oracle - a similar situation to when Philip sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to Delphi to receive an oracle for him GÇô something which Alexander, again, would have known about. However, it makes little sense that Alexander couldn't wait, having gone to the oracle specifically because he wished to consult the god concerning the expedition against Asia. So why the supposed urgency?

Furthermore I must question the statement that Alexander went up himself and tried to drag her <the prophetess> to the temple . . . I am not prone to idealizing or romanticizing Alexander GÇô everyone must know this by now, but surely this flies in the face of everything we are told about the man. That someone supposedly so respectful of women would lay their hands on a woman, and a priestess no less, is not credible. And not only was it discreditable behavior towards a woman, it was offensive to Apollo. The Pythia served Apollo - manhandle her and not only did you insult the temple of Delphi, but the god himself. Would Alexander really have wanted to risk bringing down the wrath of one of the gods upon himself, especially before leaving on his Asian campaign?

Further to all this, John Maxwell O'Brien remarks in Alexander the Great: The Invisible Enemy that: "Alexander seems to have appeared at Delphi shortly after Apollo had left for his annual sojourn among the Hyperboreans. In the god's absence, Dionysus, who had become Apollo's partner there, presided over the sanctuary. Therefore it would be Dionysus, and not Apollo, who was slighted by Alexander's rude behavior."

Now if this is true (and I am not questioning John's scholarship here, only noting that he uses the expression seems to have appeared), then in all probability the Delphinians could not have arranged for an oracle for Alexander. I am not one hundred percent on this, but I do not think that Dionysus could give predictions in the absence of Apollo, but was just there to protect the temple. If he could, then all my above comments stand. And if he could not, then there is even more reason to doubt this story. Delphi certainly did not operate in a religious vacuum. As the dictionary says, "No religious institution in all antiquity obtained such a paramount influence, not only in Greece, but in all countries around the Mediterranean, in all matters of importance, whether relating to religion or to politics, to private or to public life, as the oracle of Delphi." Surely Alexander, one of the most devoutly and outwardly religious of men, could not have been unfamiliar with the comings and goings of the gods at Delphi?

As I see it, I do not think this story demonstrates that Alexander used religion when it suited him and to serve his purpose, nor that it fits with the man's nature. Now, I certainly believe that he did just that, and probably on many an occasion, but I disagree that this was one of them. This story as told, tells us that Alexander was not at all respectful of women; not at all respectful of religious convention; not at all respectful of the gods in general and Apollo and/or Dionysos in particular; and that he was fundamentally stupid if he did not know that the Pythia's words were worthless and that his whole behavior here was dishonorable, disreputable, and downright offensive.

I normally hate to try and discredit specific stories in the sources, in fact, I willl usually fight against it, mostly because those who do so usually have an agenda. However, in this instance, I find the tale simply unbelievable for the reasons stated above. I think it is an invention - a cute story created to illustrate an aspect of Alexander's character and one that does not bear any close examination.

I am done for now. Shields at the ready . . .

Best regards,

amyntoros wrote:[A bit of a cryptic comment, Paralus, and IGÇÖm not sure if you doubt the veracity of the tale or not. However, IGÇÖm going to wax lyrical (or, if not lyrical, IGÇÖm simply going to wax) on this topic as IGÇÖve long had strong opinions about this reported event at Delphi. However, in this instance, I find the tale simply unbelievable for the reasons stated above. I think itGÇÖs an invention GÇô a GÇ£cuteGÇ¥ story created to illustrate an aspect of AlexanderGÇÖs character and one that doesnGÇÖt bear any close examination.

IGÇÖm done for now. Shields at the ready

No disagreement there. I don't believe the story. At 02:50 having begun at 04:30 (World Cup Soccer) ...I'm into bed.

Character another day.

Hello,

I ain't got much time- so will be brief- Alexander was an ace at picking up on details that could be used in a positive way.

For me the classic is when his father complains about his limp and Alexander replies that he should be grateful to it for it reminds him at every step of his bravery etc.etc.
I admire this "translation" of something as mundane as a limp, into something that would be inspiring and upward looking.

The Macedonians looked on the Lunar eclipse on October the first 331 with considerable consternation- as the sacrifice to Phoibos perhaps indicates, Alexander however saw it as a sign of coming victory.

As for Alexander's respect for the pithia or lack of it- I believe that what happened at Delphi was simply Alexander demonstrating his uncanny knack for "seizing the moment"- he knew that this simple message would be as powerful as any other and it fitted his requirements perfectly, didn't it?

So, shields at the ready and, sarissas?

Best regards.
Dean

Alexander's visit to the Delphic Oracle in Plutarch and Diodorus is directly traceable to Cleitarchus, though there are circumstantial reasons to believe it was in Onesicritus as well. It was therefore published within living memory of the events, so it is dangerous to question the historicity of the basic fact that Alexander did visit Delphi, though Cleitarchus may well have sensationalised the tale. A quick look at the map will demonstrate that Alexander was definitely in the vicinity at the time of the visit. There are plenty of other stories to show that Alexander took an active interest in Oracles. Since he was about to set out for Persia, he had a good reason to consult the Pythia. He will have read that Xenophon consulted Delphi before he set out for Persia. Most tellingly, I believe there is a record from Delphi that dates to the time of Alexander's visit, which states that someone left a present at the shrine of 150 gold coins minted by Philip. This was a Macedonian gift on a royal scale - approximately a talent of silver.

Best wishes,

Andrew

Taphoi wrote:It was therefore published within living memory of the events, so it is dangerous to question the historicity of the basic fact that Alexander did visit Delphi, though Cleitarchus may well have sensationalised the tale

Hi Andrew,

I think another reading of my (admittedly long) post will show that I never at any point questioned the basic fact as to whether Alexander actually visited Delphi. I have no doubt that he did considering the importance of the oracle to the Greeks - and I'm sure that he received a proper oracle in the accepted manner.

I simply doubt the version of the story as it is laid out in Plutarch's Alexander - with all my reasons detailed in my post. As you said, Cleitarchus may well have been responsible for sensationalizing the tale. It wouldn't be the only time that he did this, as in the story of the Amazon Queen. And I'm not even going to debate that one, so rule out any contribution from me if anyone believes the story to be true (as opposed to the version of the Scythian king offering his daughter in marriage).

Best regards,

Hello,

After all this discussion about the Pythia and what have you. I found it interesing to discover that the "Pythian" games existed-(you didn't have to breathe any noxious fumes or anything) held every four years at the sanctuary of Apollo in Delphi- as opposed to the Olympic games- these included literary competitions as well and curiosly the winners were given laurel wreaths from Thessally.
Was also interested to read about the mythological origins of the oracle- Apollo killing the earth dragon- or python- and turning it into his oracle...
all good stuff...
Best regards,
Dean

amyntoros wrote: A bit of a cryptic comment, Paralus, and IGÇÖm not sure if you doubt the veracity of the tale or not.

Right: Shields up Mr Scott!

Now that I've returned from the children's soccer and caught up on much needed sleep (though I do believe I need follow Plutarch's descriprion of Alexander sleeping all day), here goes.

Yes, I doubt the veracity of the story - as told - much as Andrew and yourself have noted. It's highly likely the bloke did visit the oracle. I doubt very much that he - in oracular service terms - "raped' it in the way described. Alexander was reasonably pious - particularly when it suited (much like his father) - and for matters of "form" alone would most likely not "despoil" Delphi in such a fashion before his Macedonians if not the Greeks.

"In character"? I believe the story being retailed surrounding the visit is very much in character. Not the nature of his religious beliefs or his dealings with religious matters. More the track record of his reaction to not getting his way. The description is entirely in character with Alexander's behaviour at other times when his will is flouted or frustrated.

In which case, Andrew's point re Clietarchus is rather salient. It presents the image of the wilful Alexander which very much came to the fore in the period after 331. As I say, I don't think the Delphi visit transpired at all in the fashion described but, if the story is to be believed, the object must be to illustrate that the latter events were very much in character rather than isolated "out of character" incidents to be apologised away?

Paralus wrote:As I say, I don't think the Delphi visit transpired at all in the fashion described but, if the story is to be believed, the object must be to illustrate that the latter events were very much in character rather than isolated "out of character" incidents to be apologised away?

Maxwell O'Brien views the incident in a similar vein, saying that Alexander's behavior "is reminiscent of an encounter his mythical ancestor Heracles was once supposed to have had with the Pythia. Apollo was the god of purification, especially concerning homicide, and Heracles is said to have visited Delphi seeking a cure for the madness that made him kill. When the oracle refused to reply to his request, Heracles seized the tripod, the sacred seat of the prophetess, and threatened to establish his own oracle elsewhere. Apollo then rose to the defense of his priestess and struggled violently with his half-brother. Zeus had to separate his brawling sons with a thunderbolt, but Heracles eventually got the advice he was seeking. Members of this family shared an insistence on having things their own way, and Alexander, who thought of himself as a direct descendant of Heracles, was no exception."

Now, the above myth was surely known by Cleitarchus. Makes you wonder just how many of the tales of Alexander might have been creatively tweaked to invite further comparison with his ancestors or the gods - especially in the minor biographical details rather than the major events. Some of the myths are more familiar to us than others and we could be forgiven for not always recognizing them, don't you think?

And the above, btw, is an example of why I love O'Brien's book.

Best regards,

Did the incident at Delphi take place?? Maybe! Did Alexander treat the Sanctuary and/ or priestess with disrespect? Maybe! Would he do such a thing? Again this is open to interpretation. Would it have been out of character for Alexander to use force in getting his way? Evidence indicates that such behaviour would not be unusual. He was hot headed and didn't seem to take too kindly to having his requests denied.

We have other examples of the Macedonians not adhering "exactly" with religious rules and regulations of the Greeek states. Philip puts a statue of himself amongst the 12 Gods of Olympus!! How are we to interpret this? More importantly how would it have been interpreted at the time?

Most importantly- kneeling or bowing down before a person/statue- was a sign of aknowledging that individual as a diety or God (in Greek-Macedonian culture). Alexander had no qualms trying to implement this act of worship for himself in Persia-knowing full well its sacred meaning. This was a sign of respect in Persia, pure and simple. It must of ammazed the Persians that Alexanders soldiers etc did not greet him with this sign of respct. If Alexander was such a stickler for religion and its practices (Yes he was religious, superstitious had his own interpreter of omens etc) would he even contemplate implementing Proskenysis? But he was willing to bend the rules to suit himself and his image.

Going to the Oracle and being told "Sorry, not answering questions today mate" wouldn't have gone down too well.( And if tough action was good enough for Heracles, well it was good enough for Alex) And if later he felt bad about how his reaction to the priestess - Aristander would have made it OK. What would have been seen as sacreligious and offensive to the Gods would have been interpreted in a positive way by the great seer!!!

So Great Pythia who speaks for the great God Apollo - Will the Socceroos beat Italy?? Sorry that should read SOOCERGUUS

Aspasia wrote:So Great Pythia who speaks for the God Apollo - Will the Socceroos beat Italy??

Hear your fate , O dwellers in Terra Australis of the wide spaces;
Either your famed great sporting tradition must be sacked by Latinium's sons,
Or, if that be not, the whole land of the Great Southern Continent
Shall mourn the red carding of a striker of the house of Liverpool...

The Pythia actually e-mailed a response to my futher enquiry. It is a response I intend to follow faithfully: I shall put my trust "in the glass wall" and open a decent red to help salve what might be an unwarranted sense of disappointment (who'd have thought this far?).

The office may have to do without me later that day.

Hello,

Whilst discussing implausible episodes in the texts I'd like to discuss the events after the final assault on Gaza.

All men were killed, around 10000, to the last one- Batis is brought before Alexander, and, with superhuman impassibility says nothing but stares defiantly at Alexander.

According to Curtius, thongs were attached to the eunuch's heels and he is dragged Achillean fashion behind Alexander's chariot.

Fox, disparingingly comments, "Batis will go down in history as a fat, ugly eunuch"- and he may well have been. Quoting Fox again on the episode, "We are not to dismiss the account- in Thessaly it was a common punishment to murderers, that of their bodies being dragged round the graves of their victim"

Surprisingly this detail is omitted by Arrian who with Ptolemy's memoirs on his desk would have undoubtedly added it to his writings on Alexander if it had been there. But maybe Ptolemy decided to "forget" or had temporal "amnesia" regarding this chapter. In my edition of Arrian a footnote tells me that "we are to discredit Curtius 4.6.29.regarding Batis being dragged in a grim echo of Achilleus."

Peter Green neither "discredits" not "credits" the episode to Alexander's exploits on this occasion- simpy says that Curtius informs us of the event "The king gloated at having followed the example of his ancestor Achilles in punishing his enemy Hektor" In a similar vein, Maxwell O'Brien neither affirms nor denies- however the general feeling I get is that he is pleased to recount it. The allusion to Homer is never far behind in his work.

So we are left speculating, as with Bessus, what was his actual fate.

Best regards,
Dean

Paralus!!!!!

Where did you unearth The Pythia of nearly accurate World Cup Prophecies. Sacked by Latinim's sons??? Understatement. Crucify the ref.. That was absolutely atrocius. We were robbed. Oh cruel fate.
Red carding- this must be the Pythias way of describing "big red swollen foot". Oh how we needed the golden boy. Oh cruel cruel fate.

And now we mourn, but we got a taste, and were gonna go back for more!!

She was fairly spot on the ol' Pythia eh Aspasia?

I found her at www.cryptodelphia.com.hellas. And, if you believe that I'll tell you another!

Sounds like a church eh? The "Cryptodelphians". On the west coast of the USA you'd probably find the "The Free, Reformed Oracular Church of the Cryptodelphians".

Just kidding.............