pothos.org

Hello,

sad but true, good point.

what happened to the Persian empire after ATG conquered it? Is there much on the persians after ATG. did they rebuild as a people or race??

Ermm Stavros, you quoted my post in its entirety so when you say sad but true which point are you referring to?

With regards to your question- all I can say is that after Alexander. the Persians carried on pretty much as before. Their days of splendour had gone that is for sure- Persepolis was burnt to the ground- the last Achaemenid great king died in the womb- great empires are like that- they rise and they fall(as Ptolemy says in the film)

Best regards,
Dean

Why isnt the Persian empire so talked about? Because of the lack of much information, but mainly because it was a military empire, a wealthy one but shallow.They had no arts like poetry,theatre,literature,philisophy e.t.c. So what's there to talk about? They only had beurocracy but mainly for goverment and military reasons.And the glorious buildings of course, even though Babylon was conquered by the Persians, the buildings were there before them.

The Greeks had a huge contribution to civilization, and the Romans although they borrowed most of the things from other people like the Greeks, had their achievements too, the roads, the aqueducts, the military, a big empire and they were intriguing.The passions, the treasons, the lions, and all that.

To Say the Persians left and craeted nothing is puritanaical bull.

I would wager the Palace at Persepolis at its glory made the Parthenon look like a match box. The Persians had the first highway. The Persian road of Communication was such that Alexander used it and it has been the artery from West to East .

Persian Cloth dyes carpets and silks. Persia was and had more depth and beauty than the Greeks give credit for. Maybe why Alexander adopted some of the dress. it looked far more atatractive that the tordy Greek Dress.

I guess the Greeks made a few statues and temples. But there biggest attribute was to go off on the mouth with no real subsatance.

Maybe Alexander really didnt want to go back to Greece. Whats to go back for?

Persia and the Persian kings deserve more credit than perhaps history gives them.

Apart from Alexander Philip and a few Philosophers I know hardly any Greeks that were worth a bag of peanuts.

Kenny

Kenny, i know by now that you are just trying to pull my strings so i wont reply. But there are some interesting facts now that you mentioned the Parthenon, that some of you may not know.

At the center of this page http://www.geocities.com/sfetel/en/geometry.htm you can read more about it, like that Parthenon's columns are not parallel, but if you draw imaginery lines they meet up to a length and form a triangle, a pyramid, that is half the volume of that of the great pyramid of Giza, and other things.Also check out from the start of the page, the geometric geography of Greece.

Also something for Paralus to check, now that he is coming to Greece.And for the rest of course.

http://www.hellas.net/index.php?entry=e ... 714-163859

And some virtual reconstrucions of Parthenon.

http://www.debevec.org/Parthenon/Images/

amyntoros wrote: All over the internet (and in a couple of books that I own on ancient sports) there is an insistence that slaves were not allowed to compete in the Olympics, the understanding being that only free-born Greeks of good character could participate. There may be other sources for this, but the only evidence I've found to date comes from John Chrysostom (In Epistulam ad Hebraeos 63.133.9-12) who says specifically that slaves, thieves, and those of ill character are excluded from the Olympic games. See this pdf file, Athlete and State: Qualifying for the Olympic Games in Ancient Greece.

You've obviously done research for your novel so I'm curious about your choice. Yes, I know it's not an Alexander-specific question, but it's of interest anyway. Making a very famous Olympic athlete and friend (sycophant?) to Alexander a former slave is somewhat controversial, don't you think?

Best regards,

Valid point Amyntoros. I remember one case of a former slave taking part in Olympics. Nikostratus, a famous 'Pankratiatist' and olympic winner both in pankration and wrestling, had been kidnapped when he was a boy and was sold in Aigae to Cilicians. This event didnt stop him as it seems from being allowed in participating in Olympics.

Someone could rightfully claim that women also were not allowed to take part in Olympics but we do have rare cases of women to contest and even to be olympic winners. (Bellistiche of Macedonia, etc)

Gentlemen please, diminishing ancient cultures and creating flame-wars is plain childish. I am sure you will find lots of forums to do that but here at least respect your other co-forumers.

Callisto wrote:Someone could rightfully claim that women also were not allowed to take part in Olympics but we do have rare cases of women to contest and even to be olympic winners. (Bellistiche of Macedonia, etc)

I do believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that any women listed as Olympic victors were "owners" of the horses in chariot races. The "win" was theirs, but they weren't physically allowed to race in the events.

Valid point Amyntoros. I remember one case of a former slave taking part in Olympics. Nikostratus, a famous 'Pankratiatist' and olympic winner both in pankration and wrestling, had been kidnapped when he was a boy and was sold in Aigae to Cilicians. This event didnt stop him as it seems from being allowed in participating in Olympics.

Hmm, interesting. It could be that, having being a "free-born" Greek, capture and slavery later in life would not disqualify someone from competing. I think that Pankration has made his Dioxippus character a Spartan Helot which is a somewhat different situation.

Efstathios wrote: Also something for Paralus to check, now that he is coming to Greece.And for the rest of course.

Ooops! The secret's out. The Hellenic Department of Homeland Historical Sensitivity has issued an Historical Terrorist Alert!

All historical sites have had their alert status raised to red in expectation of an attack by a minimalist/realist historical tourist attack. Anyone entering carrying works by Badian or Bosworth will be detained and interviewed by officers of The Hellenic Historical Legacy Police!

jasonxx wrote:Apart from Alexander Philip and a few Philosophers I know hardly any Greeks that were worth a bag of peanuts.Kenny

your calling the ancient civilization of greece a bag of peanuts??? r u serious??

i cannot imagine what a real bag of peanuts would consist of

Ok Dry Roasted Peanuts.

A bit more tasty.

Ok hands up. Ive been to Greece 5 times. Loved the Weather. The food was pretty tasty and the Tomatoes are the best ive tasted. The sunshine scenery and the Beautiful sea was fantastic. And fair to say I found the Greek people Great.

Itsjust the whole 5th Century Greek supremecy game thats a bit peanuts. Words statues and a few Philosophers stand out oh and the occasional Commander. Leonidas and the Theban

Apart from that we got a lot of selfe centred backstabbers who would sell there mothers down the River for a fist of Persian loot.

To be honest I was tempted to take photos of any Greek Military Aircaraft. If only to be arrested and spend some time in a Greek Prizon it sure beats the hell out of this cold rainy dark Country.

But I couldnt find any of the Latest Greek Military BI planes.

Kenny

But I couldnt find any of the Latest Greek Military BI planes. Wink

That's because they are invisible

dean wrote:Hello,

sad but true, good point.

what happened to the Persian empire after ATG conquered it? Is there much on the persians after ATG. did they rebuild as a people or race??

Ermm Stavros, you quoted my post in its entirety so when you say sad but true which point are you referring to?

With regards to your question- all I can say is that after Alexander. the Persians carried on pretty much as before. Their days of splendour had gone that is for sure- Persepolis was burnt to the ground- the last Achaemenid great king died in the womb- great empires are like that- they rise and they fall(as Ptolemy says in the film)

Best regards,
Dean

as in Greeks firghting persian mercenary Greeks - sad but true!!!

Yes, and though you would have expected that these things are in the ancient past, still 2 times after Greece was liberated in 1821 there was a civil war.Right after the liberation between the 2 big clans that wanted the power and it eventually became a civil war between the liberated Greeks, and fter WWII at 1945 and for 4 years it was between the comunists and the army.Brother vs brother.Civil wars happen all over the world.Even in America they had their own.

amyntoros wrote:
I do believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that any women listed as Olympic victors were "owners" of the horses in chariot races. The "win" was theirs, but they weren't physically allowed to race in the events.

Still it doesnt change the fact that in prohibited for women games, even indirectly some women were able to contest and win. As the first woman olympic winner was Cynisca in 4th cent. we may assume that participation of women in olympic chariot races was a later invention.

Hmm, interesting. It could be that, having being a "free-born" Greek, capture and slavery later in life would not disqualify someone from competing. I think that Pankration has made his Dioxippus character a Spartan Helot which is a somewhat different situation.

We cant say with certainty if Nicostratus was a Greek or just an Hellenized Phrygian bearing a greek name as many did in Hellenistic ages but it doesnt matter anyway. As olympic rules tended to be "loose" during Hellenistic ages and later with the participation also of non-greeks, i wouldnt be surprised if there was indeed participation of a slave. However I believe in Alexander's time, assuming Dioxippus was a Spartan Helot, he hadnt got a chance to have permission to compete.

Amyntoros, it's people like you that keep this forum interesting! I plan on revealing Dioxippus's origins in my sequel to PATRIDA. However, my friend, the true origins of this great Greek hero are unknown although a few theories abound. As for Greek slaves participating in the Olympics; rare but allowed especially considering the fraticidal nature of the various kingdoms who would enslave those they conquered. Greek slaves were often granted freedom or they could buy it. But Amyntoros, I guarantee that if you read the whole book (and thank you for reading the intro on the blog) you will discover MANY historical inaccuracies and that is the nature of the beast that is historical fiction. Most of the story, especially Phlip's court is over 90% accurate but if I had wanted to write another history book on Alexander I would have repeated pretty well what countless historians hav already done. Readers of my book should do what you did; use it as a catalyst for further education. All I want you to do, and the other members of this forum, is to simply enjoy the ride that is that novel.

As for the question on training. I have read dozens and dozens of books and articles on the pankration and quite frankly, Amyntoros is probably right. Military training focused on fitness, unity, precision manouvers and basic weaponry. Hand to hand combat was not an active skill taught to all soldiers. Many knew some pankration as many today know some karate or boxing. And it is likely that some of the training methods of the pankratiatists ended up in "basic training" but neither the Spartans, Thebans, Athenians or the Macedonians had a pankration unit.

As for the Spartans being overrated? Sometimes it only takes a particular event to immortalize you forever. The Spartans succeeded in that at Thermopylae.

pankration wrote:As for the Spartans being overrated? Sometimes it only takes a particular event to immortalize you forever. The Spartans succeeded in that at Thermopylae.

A particular event? Yes, that's true. I do believe that the general misconception of the "300 Spartans" sees this action overrated for mine. They were not alone – at the beginning nor at the end.

For a long time the Spartans were the only "professional" army in Greece. Their discipline and attention to drill enabled them to – often – defeat an enemy before the gap between the phalanxes was closed. In fact, the news that the Spartans were to lead a Peloponnesian army into the filed often negated the need for them to do so. I've often thought that this contributed much to their "slowness to act" – something the Corinthians were known to bang on about like the "fishwives" of the Peloponnesian League they often appear to be.

That said, I believe their finest actions to be two battles some forty years apart. The first is ill attested and the second is often not accorded the importance it certainly had for Laconia. Both included significant levies of Homoioi, the second with some 80% of the remaining Homoioi.

Tanagra took place in 457. The Spartans had used the pretext of settling matters in Phocis as the reason for their involvement in central Greece. Nicomedes (regent for Pleistoanax), with 1,500 Homoioi and 10,000 allied infantry – and the agreement of the Ephorate – had eyes on Athens ascendancy in the same area. The issue was forced when the army could not return via the Isthmus (as Megara had returned to the Athenian alliance) and Athens (with 1,000 Argive hoplites) marched out to meet them with 14,000 hoplites. It would not do to have a Spartan levy destroyed at sea. The battle was vicious and occasioned "great losses on both sides" (Thuc. I. 107-108) with the Spartans emerging victorious and, abandoning hopes of tearing down Athens newly completed long walls, happy to be able to march home.

Mantinea was fought during the "Peace of Nikias" in 418. That self interested, mongrel and chameleon, Alkibiades, had put together an alliance – hinged on Athens – including Argos and Mantinea. Defeat for Sparta here would be tantamount to Leuktra and Mantinea (362) combined. Putting a new corps, the Sciritae, and Perioecic hoplites into the field, the Spartans first fell back - their line broken - before the king and his "knights" charged the enemy and put their centre to flight. The Spartan right then wheeled left and summarily "rescued" their left. There was great carnage and many a Homoioi fell.

A cursory glance at a map of the Peloponnese will quickly demonstrate the result of a Spartan defeat in this engagement. Possibly the legend was not "born" here, but, it most certainly was rescued.